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SW-L  January 2011

SW-L January 2011

Subject:

Re: Research about benefit of SW

From:

Rafaela Silva <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages

Date:

Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:34:43 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (509 lines)

Hi Stefan.

I have the same interests as you. Did you get some information?

Rafa :)


On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:39:13 +0100, Stefan Wöhrmann
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Hi Charles, 
>
>it is me again  - smile.  Well your first message made me think as if it
>should be easy for you to give some kind of direct link to such a study. I
>do not have the time and energy to search for this kind of study . On the
>other hand I do not want o put any burdon on you in case it would be the
>same time consuming job. Of course not.  Well � is it possible to proof that
>SignWriting makes the difference if it comes down to improving Spoken
>Language skills? Complicated problems and questions have to be answered
>within this context. I would be very interested to look at the details of
>these kind of studies. You know that I am teaching deaf students and we use
>Signwriting 5 days the week. 
>
>I am interested to find out whether there are really studies that �work�
>with competent deaf SignWriting students. What you need to proof that is a
>really large SW-dictionary � not just maybe 2000 entries. You need documents
>of many pages � not just a list of 100 vocabularies or something like that. 
>
> 
>
>Well � I  got interested because of your message which indicated to me that
>you have knowledge of specific research about this. 
>
> 
>
>Stefan ;-) 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
>Gesendet: Montag, 10. Januar 2011 18:20
>An: [log in to unmask]
>Betreff: Re: AW: Filme " E seu nome � Jonas"
>
> 
>
>There is information on Brazil under Brazil and SignWriting, look for any
>posting by Fernando Capovilla at the University of Sao Paulo. He has been
>looking to get the word out about the breakthroughs that are happening in
>Deaf education.  His longitudinal study of 8000 Deaf Students in every state
>of Brazil should be known everywhere.
>
> 
>
>The other example I can think of is SignWriting in Saudi Arabia and other
>Arabic-speaking countries. Using a writing system that reduces the human
>form to an icon enables them to learn the Quran and translate that
>literature in Saudi Arabian, Tunisian, and other sign languages. 
>
> 
>
>Charles
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>From: Stefan W�hrmann <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 10:19:46 AM
>Subject: AW: Filme " E seu nome � Jonas"
>
>Hi Charles,
>
> 
>
>I am interested to learn more about the �longitudinal studies in Brazil and
>other countries�. 
>
>Can you give some information where I can get first hand information to get
>an idea about  that?  What other countries?
>
> 
>
>Stefan ,-)  
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>Von: SignWriting List : Read and Write Sign Languages
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
>Gesendet: Montag, 10. Januar 2011 16:14
>An: [log in to unmask]
>Betreff: Re: Filme " E seu nome � Jonas"
>
> 
>
>This film is about a boy who is diagnosed as mentally retarded for years
>until someone actually does a hearing test and discovers that he is
>brilliant, just deaf. As soon as he begins to learn sign language, his life
>improves dramatically.
>
> 
>
>The film is "Your Name is Jonah" in English.  I would say the same thing for
>Deaf folk who begin to learn SignWriting.  From longitudinal studies in
>Brazil and other countries, having a measurable way to prove written
>literacy enables Deaf and Hearing folk to truly compare intelligence in the
>written word.
>
> 
>
>Charles
>
> 
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>From: Ingvild Roald <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 4:29:11 AM
>Subject: Re: Filme " E seu nome � Jonas"
>
>What is this about?? I never heard of it. Has it anything to do with
>signwriting? If not, why do you mention it on this list?? I am confused.
>
>Ingvild 
>
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 22:01:24 +0300
>From: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Filme " E seu nome � Jonas"
>To: [log in to unmask]
>
>Obrigada!!!!
>
>  _____  
>
>Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 11:09:07 -0800
>From: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Filme " E seu nome � Jonas"
>To: [log in to unmask]
>
>My name is Jonas is quite a powerful film.  I will see about availability in
>this area.
>
> 
>
>Charles Butler
>
>
> 
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>From: isa peixoto da silva <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Sent: Thu, January 6, 2011 11:27:58 AM
>Subject: Filme " E seu nome � Jonas"
>
>
>Boa Tarde amigo Charles!
>
>
>Voc� poderia me ajudar? Preciso muito saber onde encontrar o filme " E seu
>nome � Jonas". N�o consigo encontra esse filme � muito dific�l...
>
>OBS: FELIZ ANO NOVO !!!!!!!!
>
>ATT: Isa Peixoto
>
>  _____  
>
>Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 22:04:10 -0800
>From: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: AW: AW: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
>To: [log in to unmask]
>
>Excellent answer, it will be a challenge for my work with Ethiopian Sign
>Language as their abjad is so different than the Roman alphabet.
>
> 
>
>Charles
>
> 
>
>  _____  
>
>From: Valerie Sutton <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 7:38:27 PM
>Subject: Re: AW: AW: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
>
>SignWriting List
>December 11, 2010
>
>Hello Charles and Stefan -
>
>Great discussion! ;-)
>
>Before I go back to respond to all that has been said (tomorrow when I am
>back online), I want to explain to others who are reading our messages, what
>we are talking about...
>
>SignWriting can be sorted in dictionaries and lists "by Sign
>Symbols"...Sorting dictionaries or vocabulary lists by Sign-Symbols is done
>with two processes:
>
>1. First, the "SignSpelling Sequence" must be established. It is "the order
>of symbols within EACH sign...like spellings for words in spoken languages -
>the "spelling order" of symbols has to be understood by the computer, so the
>computer can "sort" the dictionary by Sign-Symbols...
>
>To establish the "SignSpelling Sequence" for each sign in SignPuddle, we ask
>the writers of the signs to click on the SignSpelling button to the right of
>the signs they have written (must be logged-in to do this). The writer tells
>the computer what symbol in the sign should come first, and what symbol
>should come second etc, when finding signs in a list...
>
>
>
>2. Second, once the sign has its SignSpelling established, then, when
>someone searches for a list of signs in SignPuddle, using the Symbol
>Frequency or Search by Symbol or Search by Signs searching methods, all of
>the signs that have a SignSpelling Sequence established in the dictionary
>will be listed sorted by the alphabetical order of SignWriting , called the
>Sign-Symbol-Sequence...
>
>3. If a sign does NOT have a SignSpelling entered in the dictionary, and
>there are lots of them, then SignPuddle places them in the list "as best as
>it can based on a semi-good sequencing that is automated"...but so far
>SignPuddle really needs the writers to put in the SignSpelling Sequence they
>feel is best manually, because the automated choices are not as good as they
>should be -
>
>I am hoping in time that we can improve the automated listings without the
>manual work, but we are not there yet, because there are still other
>theories as to which SignSpelling Sequence is right and I am not sure myself
>- I think all of our theories need to be tested on lots of people - can they
>find signs quickly in a thick dictionary sorted by Sign-Symbols? that kind
>of research needs to be done with lots of skilled signwriters to see who can
>find signs in a thick dictionary the fastest, based on different sorting
>methods -
>
>So Charles, I am working on updating SignBank, a dictionary publishing
>program for SignWriting, to use the ISWA 2010, and SignPuddle will be using
>the ISWA 2010 in about a month or so, and when all the programs are using
>the ISWA 2010, you will be able to find a list of vocabulary in SignPuddle,
>export the list to SignBank, and print dictionaries sorted by
>Sign-Symbol-Sequence from SignBank. Someday SignPuddle will also have the
>print formats built in, but not yet ;-)
>
>You can see a few old examples of these dictionaries produced by SignBank
>years ago on this web page:
>
>http://signbank.org/dictionaries/
>
>Numbers 2, 3 and 5 are all PDFs that were made from a combination of
>SignPuddle and SignBank - SignBank is simply a database program that accepts
>the signs from SignPuddle into different print formats for printing
>dictionaries both directions -
>
>I will read your messages more carefully tomorrow morning and look forward
>to it - I am sorry I must run right now ;-)
>
>Talk to you tomorrow -
>
>Val ;-)
>
>------
>
>
>
>On Dec 11, 2010, at 4:05 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>
>> I understand your "search by word" for practical reasons, I guess what I
>am looking to would be a future in which signed language dictionaries are
>just that, signed language dictionaries, not bilingual dictionaries in a
>spoken language with signs attached to them.
>> 
>> You wouldn't teach English grammar in French, nor French grammar in
>English unless you intended that a person never be fluent in English alone
>or French alone.  
>> 
>> So in teaching ASL, or LIBRAS, or Ethiopian Sign Language, I'm trying to
>truly think in a signed language, in projection, so if I want to find a
>sign, I want to look it up by handshape because I may see someone using the
>sign and I have no idea, even in context, what it may mean.
>> 
>> I got so frustrated when I was taking ASL at Gallaudet University and the
>question was asked "how many signs can you think of which use the "little
>finger" handshape.  
>> 
>> The lists of signs included, spaghetti, innocent, idea, draw, etc, but
>every one of the lists was in English words, in what I thought was a "total
>immersion" sign language class.
>> 
>> I was the only one taking notes in sign language, so if I saw a sign I
>didn't know, I tried not to ask in English, but in sign, and expected a
>signed answer, not an English language answer, but the teacher, who was
>native Deaf, kept on writing down English words, not what I wanted at all.
>> 
>> Charles
>> 
>> 
>> From: Stefan W�hrmann <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 6:54:36 PM
>> Subject: AW: AW: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
>> 
>> Hi Charles,
>>  
>> thanks for your explanation. 
>>  
>> Well for practical reasons I am happy to look up a sign from �searching by
>word�.
>> Sometimes I feel lucky to look for signs by symbol � especially if I get a
>message in ASL and have to look for the meaning of a sign.
>> I see that you would love to have a dictionary in sign order. � This is
>interesting.
>>  
>> I do not know what categories would be first, second third � if I would go
>to sort all the signs.
>>  
>> Thanks for your answer.
>>  
>> Stefan
>>  
>>  
>> Von: SignWriting List : Read and Write Sign Languages
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag vonCharles Butler
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 12. Dezember 2010 00:14
>> An: [log in to unmask]
>> Betreff: Re: AW: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
>>  
>> Okay, when Valerie first came out with Sign Writing for Everyday Use, we
>had an order to the signs within each group, following in a logical order
>from straight to bent to curled.  With the growth of the system, handshapes
>have been added without a logical progression so that missing ones may be
>inferred but there is no order to them.  
>>  
>> For a complete dictionary, in sign order, then pushing "Sign Frequency"
>will print them by group and in order of the numbers of the codes, but that
>coding is not consistent across the board.
>>  
>> When I teach the system, I teach it in an order, Group 1, then Group 2,
>then Group 3, then Group 4, but i also attempt to put the actual handshapes
>in a logical order, and at the moment that varies from sign language to sign
>language depending on which handshapes are actually used in the language. 
>>  
>> I published, some time ago, a proposed system to put 
>>  
>> 1) handshape
>> 2) orientation starting from facing the reader, half left or right, back
>of hand, face up, forward half left or right, face down
>> 3) rotation from vertical rotating clockwise.
>> 4) --- second handshape would fit here if more than one hand is in the
>sign, orientation, rotation
>> 4A - I put location here, Valerie puts it at the end, from her experiments
>with Deaf looking up signs. 
>> 5) --- contact (touch, strike, brush, rub)
>> 6) --- finger movement
>> 7) --- vertical movement
>> 8) --- horizontal movement
>> 9) --- curved vertical movement
>> 10) --- curved horizontal movement
>> 11) --- circles
>> 12) --- speed
>> 13) --- facial expressions
>>  
>> So, for example, the following are in Sign-Symbol-Sequence Order for me.
>All two handed signs come after all one handed signs for the same
>orientation. 
>>  
>>  = Group 1, primary orientation, no movement
>>  
>>  = Group 1, primary orientation, movement vertical, 
>>  
>>  = Group 1, primary orientation, first hand, group one, primary
>orientation second hand, movement horizontal, facial involvement (ALL TWO
>HANDED SIGNS COME AFTER ONE HANDED SIGNS)
>>  
>>  = Group 1, primary orientation, first hand, group 5, back of hand, second
>hand, movement horizontal (GROUP 5 comes after GROUP 1) 
>>  
>>  = Group 1, second orientation, 45 counter clockwise, circular motion,
>facial involvement
>>  
>>  
>>  - Group 1, first hand, second orientation, 45 counter clockwise, Group 1,
>crooked handshape, finger movement, finger movement.  Is this before the one
>above from the finger movement?
>>  
>>  
>> (SKIPPING A FEW)
>>  
>>  
>>  = Group 5, first hand, forward, half, 45 counter clockwise, Group 5,
>second hand, forward, half, 45 clockwise, held in between, forward twice 
>>  
>>  Group 5, side forward, half, 45 counter clockwise, Group 5 side forward,
>half, 45 clockwise, held in between, twice forward twice, slow
>>  
>> The Sign Symbol Sequence may order the signs if each of them has been
>ordered, but I have not sufficiently experimented to see if one enters signs
>and then orders them by one's chosen order whether the "symbol frequency"
>will follow that order.  
>>  
>>  
>> From: Stefan W�hrmann <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 12:08:45 PM
>> Subject: AW: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
>> 
>> Hi Charles,
>>  
>> can you explain? I do not understand.
>>  
>> Stefan ;-)
>>  
>> Von: SignWriting List : Read and Write Sign Languages
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag vonCharles Butler
>> Gesendet: Samstag, 11. Dezember 2010 14:29
>> An: [log in to unmask]
>> Betreff: Re: Creating a sign language ordered dictionary
>>  
>> But can you print a dictionary from Sign Puddle in one's chosen order
>without constructing it yourself? I order my dictionary down to the
>individual handshape and movement, and that is all by hand.
>>  
>> Charles
>>  
>>  
>> From: Stefan W�hrmann <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 2:37:24 AM
>> Subject: AW: I need your help: DOS Box and SignWriter 4.4
>> 
>> Hi Meryeme,
>>  
>>  
>> I am no software expert whatsoever and it took me a long time to
>understand the tricks how to install the DOS-Box proberly to work together
>with the SW 4.4  Program (except for printing) . I wrote a short tutorial �
>>  
>>
>http://www.gebaerdenschrift.de/documents/dos_winxp/dos_box_installation.htm
>>  
>> Perhaps this can support you in your efforts?
>>  
>> In addition to that. It takes some time to become an expert with this DOS
>� SignWriter 4.4  Program  - you have to download and install the dictionary
>...
>>  
>> As Valerie mentioned before � the SignPuddle software allows an easy way
>to create entries, to create documents, to send emails written in
>SignWriting, to look up terms word � to sign order and to look up signs �
>symbol �to sign order, you can search for frequencies (what are the most
>often used symbols) ....
>>  
>> Good luck
>>  
>> Stefan
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> Von: SignWriting List : Read and Write Sign Languages
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag vonMeryeme Ayache
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Dezember 2010 22:04
>> An: [log in to unmask]
>> Betreff: Re: I need your help
>>  
>> hey Valerie and Stefan :-)
>>    I hope that you all are doing well. I installed the DOSbox but I have
>problem in some DOS commands like 'md \sw' in order to create f directory
>but I will keep trying I think that is because I am using window 7 but I am
>not sure. and by the way I used the ASL SignPuddle Dictionary and I really
>like but I don't wanna use it in my project because I need to enter the sign
>writing manually because I have to verify first if the entered character
>belong to the list of sign-writing language or not and that is what we call
>it (the lexical analyzer :-) and it is the first step to realize a compiler
>I will let you updated of my researches 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Meryeme Ayache.
>> El�ve ing�nieur ( 2�me ann�e )
>> Ecole Nationale Sup�rieure d'Informatique et d'Analyse des Syst�mes (
>Rabat ).
>
>

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