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SW-L  August 2011

SW-L August 2011

Subject:

Re: Wahawafe - a multilingual translation project

From:

Nikhil Sinha <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages

Date:

Wed, 10 Aug 2011 00:07:17 +0530

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (195 lines)

Hey, thank you very much for the translation! :-) i'll upload it in a
day or two. I'll let you know.
Regards,
Nikhil.

On 09/08/2011, Ingvild Roald <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> OK -here the path of the index is wider, including you and your friends
>
> Ingvild
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 20:10:36 +0530
>> From: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Wahawafe - a multilingual translation project
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> Hi!
>> Thank you very much for your translation! :-) but, could you please
>> rewrite this using the inclusive form of we? Quite a few people have
>> thought of aliens because of the line "from Earth". So, i have
>> mentioned on my site that this project is only for humans and you
>> should use the inclusive form. Sorry for the trouble!
>> Thanks again! :)
>> Nikhil.
>>
>> On 09/08/2011, Ingvild Roald <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> > As I suppose the sentence is something you could use if you were to
>> > meet
>> > extraterrestrials, I have chosen to use the exclusive but extensive
>> > 'we',
>> > and the Norwegian SL-sentence would translitterate something like
>> > 'humans we
>> > yes, live Earth we yes', where the 'we' is 'all of us here, but not
>> > you'. I
>> > am not a 'native' signer, and cannot guarantee that this would be the
>> > best
>> > way of putting it in Norwegian SL, but I think it would do. The
>> > sign-text is
>> > a screen dump. as I always have problems with the SignText in
>> > combination
>> > with e-mail
>> >
>> > Ingvild
>> > Roald, Norway
>> >
>> >> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 22:28:57 +0530
>> >> From: [log in to unmask]
>> >> Subject: Re: Wahawafe - a multilingual translation project
>> >> To: [log in to unmask]
>> >>
>> >> Hi! I don't claim that my sentence will not cause any problem in
>> >> translation. I accept that languages are really different from one
>> >> another to come up with an easily translatable and meaningful
>> >> sentence. However, this sentence can be satisfactorily rendered in
>> >> most languages, at least spoken ones. I don't have much idea of sign
>> >> language grammars.
>> >> You should use the version of "we", which includes the maximum number
>> >> of people. If there is a difference between inclusive and exclusive
>> >> "we", then use the inclusive one. Both the we's refer to the same
>> >> group of people. If it's not possible to say the whole thing in one
>> >> sentence, you can break this into two, by dropping the "and".
>> >> Nikhil.
>> >>
>> >> On 31/07/2011, Trevor Jenkins <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >> > On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Valerie Sutton
>> >> > <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Nikhil needs the translations in written SIGN LANGUAGES, not spoken
>> >> >> languages!
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> I am not an ASL expert, or I would do the translation myself in ASL.
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> actually do not how to sign that phrase in ASL, so that is why I
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> waiting
>> >> >> for someone who knows ASL to do the translation for NIkhil in
>> >> >> ASL...written
>> >> >> in SignWriting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm in a similar situation with BSL. I'm increasing fluent in its
>> >> > use
>> >> > but
>> >> > not a native speaker. However, I am fluent in English yet I don't
>> >> > know
>> >> > how
>> >> > to understand the phrase:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> "We are humans and we are from Earth."
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > How many are the "we"s? English, plus I guess many (all?) of the
>> >> > spoken
>> >> > languages given here as exemplars, the first person plural is
>> >> > uncountable.
>> >> > It would be possible to translate it into Swedish with "vi" and
>> >> > still
>> >> > obscure the number of participants. In BSL, at least, the first
>> >> > person
>> >> > plural is countable; up to four maybe five even 10. It is signed
>> >> > differently
>> >> > depending on the number of participants. For example, if "we"
>> >> > consists
>> >> > of me
>> >> > and my wife then I sign that slightly different from me, my wife,
>> >> > and
>> >> > you
>> >> > (Valerie), plus the physical proximity of the "we" one to another
>> >> > would
>> >> > change the sign(s) needed. However these small groups are signed
>> >> > entirely
>> >> > differently from "we" as the subscribers to this list (if all of us
>> >> > happened
>> >> > to be assembled in one locale).
>> >> >
>> >> > The presence of the "and" indicates that the second "we" is a
>> >> > distinct
>> >> > different group from the first but with the speaker (signer) a
>> >> > member
>> >> > of
>> >> > both groups. There is a famous phrase that exemplifies the same
>> >> > problem
>> >> > "Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path." In this
>> >> > case
>> >> > the
>> >> > AND is a transliteration from the source language but its inclusion
>> >> > creates
>> >> > an ambiguity that is not in the original. If that second "we" of the
>> >> > sample
>> >> > sentence were to refer to me, my wife and my dog then the "and" is
>> >> > vital.
>> >> >
>> >> > There's also a BSL issue here. We have no sign for AND. There are
>> >> > ways
>> >> > to
>> >> > indicate that two things are connected but not immediately.
>> >> >
>> >> > The "from" affects the translational choices too. Where is this
>> >> > discourse
>> >> > dislocated sentence being transacted and how did the various "we"s
>> >> > arrive
>> >> > there, or were "we" there from the beginning. Similarly the actors
>> >> > to
>> >> > whom
>> >> > this phrase is being relayed are they from somewhere else coming to
>> >> > the
>> >> > "here" or were they there from the beginning. This information will
>> >> > change
>> >> > how the sentence can be translated.
>> >> >
>> >> > It's not that the sentence is un-translatable *per se* but that
>> >> > rather
>> >> > it is
>> >> > not context free as Nikhil claimed somewhere (possibly on his web
>> >> > site).
>> >> > At
>> >> > least for BSL, context is required otherwise the processing costs in
>> >> > the
>> >> > sense of Relevance Theory is astronomically high. Without the
>> >> > enclosing
>> >> > context it isn't really possible to provide a BSL translation.
>> >> >
>> >> > Regards, Trevor.
>> >> >
>> >> > <>< Re: deemed!
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> निखिल सिन्हा | Nikhil Sinha
>> >> [log in to unmask]
>> >> www.wahawafe.zxq.net - Wahawafe - a multilingual translation project.
>> >> "We are humans and we are from Earth." in several languages.
>> >>
>> >  		 	   		
>>
>>
>> --
>> निखिल सिन्हा | Nikhil Sinha
>> [log in to unmask]
>> www.wahawafe.zxq.net - Wahawafe - a multilingual translation project.
>> "We are humans and we are from Earth." in several languages.
>>
>  		 	   		


-- 
निखिल सिन्हा | Nikhil Sinha
[log in to unmask]
www.wahawafe.zxq.net - Wahawafe - a multilingual translation project.
"We are humans and we are from Earth." in several languages.

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