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Thank you so much for describing the process of creating levels of signwriting. Very interesting. Yes - exactly - transcribing and writing are two different processes, but I totally understand your reasons for transcribing the higher levels. It is so interesting. Thanks again. Maria > SignWriting List > May 5, 2010 > > Hello Maria and everyone - > Please excuse my tardiness in replying to this message - See my answers > below... > > > On Apr 21, 2010, MARIA AZZOPARDI wrote: >> Can I just ask two small questions? Did you consider asking a Deaf >> person >> to write directly level 3 and level 4? > > Sure. I guess it doesn't matter whether they be Deaf or hearing...anyone > skilled at writing advanced documents, without transcribing from video, > but writing directly from their knowledge of the sign language being > written, could write Levels 3 and 4 directly without video... > > But let me describe the reasons as to why we have chosen to transcribe > from Deaf storytelling videos for Levels 3 and 4... > > First, I am not Deaf nor am I that skilled in any sign language, so the > only way I personally could write good ASL is to transcribe it from > video...and with limited funds and no Deaf staff at the time, I went ahead > and transcribed Darline's wonderful storytelling videos... > > Second, we are all very new to writing our sign languages, and there are a > lot of grammar points that native signers, or very skilled signers, do not > think of, when they are writing directly, but when they see themselves on > video, they realize that they did this or that...and had not thought of > writing that, since they didn't even realize they signed that way...so > this is the real reason why I based the advanced documents on videotapes > of Deaf storytelling, because it was the only way, with a brand new > writing system, to realize what we needed to write...it was our stage in > our historic development that really influenced that decision... > > Third, basing a big document on a video is helpful for other > reasons...Editors can refer back to the video to check the work, and if > the video is signed well, then there is no criticism on the quality of the > ASL or grammar etc...at least the issue as to whether we are writing good > ASL (or not) goes away, because we can point to the video to say that the > signer chose to sign it that way, and we are just transcribing what they > said...then the editors just need to edit the actual SignWriting, and not > the grammar, and this process helped me personally, because I was able to > ask Kelly Jo Boal, for example, to transcribe Darline's storytelling of > Snow White, and it was easy enough, because I could give Kelly Jo Boal the > video and then the job was just to write what you see, without making > linguistic decisions... > > But having said all this, there is a new development on that front... > > Nancy Romero, a hearing interpreter in ASL, and a very skilled signwriter, > recently started to translate Bible sections into ASL and has been writing > them directly in ASL without any video as a basis...So Nancy is doing just > what you suggest with your question, Maria, because she is writing > directly in three lanes, in Level 4, in a very simple style of writing. > She is not writing all the detail that we do when we write video > transcription...so it is a very different process...but I like Nancy's > simple style of writing, and with the Deaf ASL editor, Lucinda O'Grady > Batch, I feel they have created good books. > > Recently Nancy completed the written translation of the entire book of > Romans, in ASL. It is in the ASL Bible Puddle. And of course, the Gospel > According to John: > > Book of Romans in ASL > http://www.signbank.org/SignPuddle1.5/searchword.php?ui=1&sgn=28&sid=7221 > > Gospel According to John > http://www.signwriting.org/library/bible/Gospel_John.html > > >> >> As I'm going through the Library on the website, from the material the >> following differences emerge. There is signwriting that is: >> >> 1. written directly into sign language (by native/ non-native) >> 2. transcribed from video >> 3. translated directly into sign language >> 4. interpreted and then transribed into sign language > > > This is true! I think all processes have value and I am glad to see such > variety... > > >> >> The processes involved in writing and transcribing are different. >> Writing >> is a cognitive process where you have time to think about the language >> you >> are using and re-edit, etc. Just like writing literature in spoken >> language. A written book is very different to a story that would be >> transcribed from someone saying a story there and then. > > That is very true. I hope more signwriters will become that skilled, to be > able to write directly at advanced levels, without forgetting important > grammar aspects...it is just a matter of time I believe... > > >> My second question is: I can see there is literature that is written >> horizontally and vertically. What's the history of this, and it seems >> like >> there are certain countries (Brazil and France) that still write >> horizontally - what's your opinion about this? > > > Smile ;-)) > > When my Deaf co-workers Lucinda O'Grady Batch and Meriam Ina Schroeder > requested, in a meeting, in 1984, that we start writing in the Expressive > in Vertical Columns, believe me, it was a shock and took us years to > change all our software and textbooks and it was the best thing we ever > did! They were absolutely correct. It just took a long time to change the > software to write vertically. > > When SignWriting began, in 1974, it was Receptive in Horizontal > Left-to-Right style, because in 1974, I based the invention on watching > videos of Deaf people signing Danish Sign Language, and the Receptive mode > was easiest when transcribing from videos...this was at the University of > Copenhagen in 1974-1975. > > But by 1984, we had hired 10 Deaf native signers of ASL, in California, my > homeland, to write the SignWriter Newspaper articles in ASL...it was an > historic research project because the SignWriter Newspaper required that > the Deaf reporters write all their articles in ASL...Most articles were > written with full stick figures, receptive, from left to right, but over > time, from 1981 to 1984, the Deaf reporters realized that they preferred > to write vertically and expressively and without stick figures, and so > that historic SignWriter Newspaper project really gave us outstanding data > - that is - experience for Deaf people to tell us what they needed... > > So I am grateful to the Deaf Community for requesting these historic > changes...You can read about some of this on the web, plus, i would > strongly suggest watching the SignWriting History videos, which we call > "Deaf Perspectives on SignWriting"... > > SignWriting History > http://www.signwriting.org/library/history/index.html > > Evolution of Writing Styles > http://www.signwriting.org/library/history/hist008.html > > Deaf Perspectives Video: How SignWriting Changed > http://www.signwriting.org/video/swvideo4.html > > On the above video, Lucinda explains how we changed from receptive to > expressive and from horizontal to vertical... > > So you will see old documents written hortizontally because they are old, > and also because the old software, SignWriter DOS, which is excellent > software, sadly can only write from left to right, so that is the reason i > do not use SignWriter DOS, because it does not write vertically in lanes, > like SignPuddle does... > > Hope this has helped - > > Val ;-) > > ----------- > > > >> >> thanks again, >> maria >> >> >>> SignWriting List >>> April 20, 2010 >>> >>> Hello Maria! >>> Thank you for this message, and as Adam has confirmed, your message >>> made >> it to the List... >>> >>> Regarding the four SignWriting Levels of Goldilocks...I am also coming >> out >>> with four SignWriting Levels for Snow White in ASL as well. Snow White >> Level One is now a published book, although not posted on the web yet... >>> >>> I developed the four SignWriting reading levels for the SignWriting >> Literacy Project in 1998 - >>> >>> SW1 - SignWriting Level 1: WorkBook and Coloring Book for Beginners >> Individual signs that are used in later levels are presented on pages >> with >>> illustrations and some pages in the workbook ask beginners to write >>> rows >> of one sign...repeating the handwriting of one sign at a time...I do not >> mean only symbols in rows, but actually writing a complete sign, like >> the >>> sign for SNOW, many times in a vertical row, to give the student >> practice. >>> So they learn vocabulary that will be used in later levels, and they >>> can >> color the illustrations that are used in later levels. Although Level 1 >> is >>> obviously geared for children because it is a coloring book, actually >> the >>> workbook exercises are useful for all beginners, no what their ages... >>> >>> SW2 - SignWriting Level 2: Basic Storybook >>> This is a shortened version of the story, not based on any video, but >> written directly in SignWriting, in short sentences, with fairly simple >> signs, and the sentences usually are written with only a Center Lane, to >> give readers their first experience in reading full sentences. There are >> no more than 2 vertical columns of writing per page. The sign language >> sentences are then translated into simple spoken language. Both >> languages >>> are written with large type for beginning readers. All signs in the >> sign-sentences can be looked up in a little dictionary in the back of >> the >>> Level 2 book, for reference. Darline wrote her stories directly in ASL >> for >>> this purpose. Writing directly in sign language, doing no translation >> from >>> any spoken language, and not basing it on any video, is the best way to >> get simple writing of a shortened version of the story. >>> >>> SW3 - SignWriting Level 3: Intermediate Storybook >>> This is a video transcription of ASL storytelling, with medium size >> SignWriting symbols, medium size spoken language translation, and >> colorful >>> illustrations. The SignWriting sentences have full facial expressions, >> role shifting, all three Lanes are used to show the grammar of the >> language. Writing storytelling from ASL video provides an advanced >> story, >>> but at the intermediate level there are no more than three vertical >> columns on one page and there is a spoken language translation on each >> page. >>> >>> SW4 - SignWriting Level 4: Advanced Storybook >>> The same video transcription used in Level 3 is now reduced to smaller >> size SignWriting symbols, with at least 4 vertical columns to a page, >> and >>> NO spoken language translation. It is pure sign language reading >> material, >>> with fewer illustrations. >>> >>> As the sizes of the SignWriting symbols reduce, the reader starts to >> read >>> for meaning, rather than trying to figure out SignWriting symbols and >> spellings...Whole signs are recognized for meaning quickly, without >> analysis. >>> >>> To start developing these levels, you need to find an excellent >>> storyteller in sign language, and videotape the story. From there, >>> break >> down the story into important vocabulary that the signer used in that >> videotape, and from there you can start Level 1....Then ask the same >> storyteller, to sit down and write the story themselves in SignWriting >> directly without looking at any video, and ask them to write the simple >> story using some of the same vocabulary...Then a skilled video >>> transcriptionist transcribes the storytelling video, and the full >> transcription is used for Levels 3 and 4. You can reduce the size of >> type >>> in SignPuddle using ColumnMaker, or drag and drop the sentences into >> programs that do auto reduction. That is how we developed the four >> SignWriting reading levels - >>> >>> Hope this helps!! >>> >>> Val ;-) >>> >>> Valerie Sutton >>> [log in to unmask] >>> >>> ----------- >>> >>> On Apr 20, 2010, at 2:19 PM, MARIA AZZOPARDI wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Valerie, >>>> I was wondering if you could explain to me how you worked on the >>>> different >>>> levels for Goldilocks? It's very interesting. I can see that level 2 >> was >>>> written directly by Darline. What technique was used for the other >>>> levels? >>>> I would love to write something for four levels of LSM signwriting, >> perhaps using the same format, would this be possible? >>>> Thanks >>>> maria >>>> ps: could you confirm that this email got to the signwriting list >>>> also? >> i've never received any confirmations and i've sent perhaps two or >> three >>>> emails since we moved to new server >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > >