From this message, I see we are understanding each other,
your system is used for Deaf chlidren to learn to read and interpret and
write spoken German and translate from German sign language into proper
spoken or written German.
As a bridge system, it is doing its job.
I am now looking at ASL written in SW without and independent of an
English translation, written to be ASL as ASL not as a pidgin English on
the hands to be translated into English for the hearing and speaking
English population. The purposes are different.
However, most educators in the US are looking at teaching English to
the Deaf and though communicating with the Deaf in ASL they are looking at
getting the Deaf to understand and read and write spoken English. The
purpose of the classroom is to teach English, not to examine and honor ASL
in its own right as its own language.
So, ASL is still not an independent language, but a colonized
language, one which is not a language "of the marketplace" with its own
history, but one essentially secondary. We once had a newspaper in that
language, assuming ASL as the first and only language of a Deaf
population.
I tried to teach SW to a class of Deaf educators in Ohio. Their ONLY
argument was "why should I teach SW to ANY Deaf children when what I want
to do is teach them ENGLISH", not some other writing system. "They", the
Deaf children", don't have time to learn another writing system on top of
English.
They'd undersstand your GebaerdenSchrift because its only purpose is
to teach German to Deaf kids, not be used as an everyday common writing
system for Deaf Germans whose only language is German Sign
Language. Charles
Butler [log in to unmask]240-764-5748 Clear writing moves
business forward. --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From:
Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> Subject: AW:
Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift To:
[log in to unmask] Date: Monday, October 17, 2011,
9:35 AM
Hello Bill,
thank you very much for your comment. Well I have to explain
that your assumptions to not go along with my practical experience of
teaching deaf students for more than 10 years now using this concept.
It
is not only for the purpose of articulation but very much to identify a
given sign in its meaning – if you are asked to write a German
translation. I had been so amazed to learn how difficult it is for a
deaf student to write down what you explain – even if you use signed
German. They are no fools so they catch the idea between the lines – but
they have to be trained to focus on themselves: Would I be able to write
it down. And lots and lots of mistakes related to vocabulary and grammar
will be the result if you really get to the point to run this test.
My
students do exactly what you cannot imagine. With so much competence
they write any Mundbild-Sequence by hand – no problem at all whatsoever!
And of course we tried many different things to reduce the amount
of the Mundbilder. For example if you count from one to hundred – it is
self understood that you do not need a l l the Mundbilder. Same is
true if you know that you are talking about colors. If it comes down to
sign names (Stefan, Valerie, Bill... ) that are known to the students we
follow the method from Nicaragua and add this tiny line underneath – so
no extra Mundbild is necessary.
On
the other hand – believe me – You would not believe how much advantage
can be taken out of every single Mundbild if the words are difficult to
differentiate or if they are new terms ...
Attached you find a document – it is not finished. The whole
document will be far more than 100 pages. And we feel blessed and
honoured that the software Team at Hamburg are so sensitive and
competent to create exact that kind of software that really fits to our
needs. My students look at this document and are asked to write or read
out loud the German translation. Although it is written in signed German
it is a very difficult task. We understand that we have to edit this
document in order to be able to write the translation without too much
guessing! It is not the final stage so far. So we will add
more Mundbilder in the future and I can imagine the big smile in their
faces because then they will be able to improve their Spoken German
skills dramatically!
We
also tried a string of Mundbilder without the face circles as you
suggest. – big smile -
We
do not do that – guess why!
Right now it seems to be a wonderful way to support deaf
children to develop higher skills in Spoken Language if we write
GebaredenSchrift as we do.
All
the best
Stefan
Von:
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Bill
Reese Gesendet: Montag,
17. Oktober 2011 14:56 An:
[log in to unmask] Betreff: Re: Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift
Charles, I have
to agree with you on this. It seems to be a lot of extra
writing. But, as Stephen pointed out, it could be used for
articulation training but not necessarily the sign itself. As a
research or training tool, you wouldn't have a child in school going to
the blackboard to write it.
I would imagine that,
for Ingvild and other's who's sign language differentiates signs by
mouth movements that the different signs could, conceivably, be written
with just the first mouth movement (if they're dissimilar) or the mouth
movement that is more dominant or is different between
signs.
On the other hand, I would also presume it's
possible to write a string of mouth movements without the face, similar
to the concept of writing Latin letters next to the
mouth.
Bill
On 10/17/2011 7:36 AM, Charles Butler
wrote:
I guess
people are misunderstanding what I'm saying, DELEGS is the closest
that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people to show
grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or
within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own
language and compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same
concepts.
I would not
want to show a Roman letter within a sign, I'd be showing a facial
expression probably quite similar to the Gebarendenschrift, but I
don't even know understand why so MANY faces compressed. One may
as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which at least
reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10
faces.
I'm sorry,
when I see a row of faces it confuses me, I think signs, not whole
clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the articulation of
a face and for showing that to help with lipreading, it may be
perfect, but I look at it and think -- how can a child possibly
write that on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o this is
simple". I guess I'm looking for minimal pairs, what is the
absolute minimum necessary to show an articulation, which for the
Deaf in the US was to strip the body away and show much fewer
facial markers than hearing users expected. The Gebaredenschrift
is created to be articulated by computer, as all these programs
are, but what of someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not
a computer. If an EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in
the world will not survive but a pencil and paper will still
function.
Charles Butler [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] 240-764-5748 Clear
writing moves business forward.
--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"><[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
From: Stefan Wöhrmann [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"><[log in to unmask]> Subject:
Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift To: [log in to unmask]"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] Date:
Monday, October 17, 2011, 6:49 AM
Hi
Ingvild,
in order to understand the difference between
Mundbildschrift – a tool to support articulation and
listening-training - and Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift (what you might write in Signwriting in
order to present information coming from the lips and tongue) you
may download this file.
http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20GebaerdenSchrift.pdf
Stefan
;-)
Von: SignWriting List:
Read and Write Sign Languages [[log in to unmask]"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Im Auftrag von
Ingvild Roald Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober
2011 11:58 An: [log in to unmask]"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] Betreff: Re: AW: Please help
us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
I agree, the
Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift are not
the same - but very useful.
The writing of 'words' beside
the mouth was / is just a lazy (and formerly only) way of writing
the different mouthing of signs that are otherwise similar. With
Mundbildschrift this can be done directly - so I do not really
miss this oprtunity to write the latin letters near the mouth.
Whith the latin letters the connection to the Norwegian word is
stressed, but letters are not really part of SignWriting
I
have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture
later this week in the Netherlands - as I am to your
Mundbildschrift - I am recomending the use of SignWriting as part
of making deaf children literate
Ingvild
Date: Mon, 17 Oct
2011 11:46:32 +0200 From: [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] Subject:
AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!! To: [log in to unmask]"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Hi
Ingvild and friends,
it is interesting to understand that you agree with my
concept that it is necessary to add information coming from the
lips- and tongue movements in order to “understand” the exact
meaning of a given sign.
“....Signs that are the same in the hands and other
movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive signs that
way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more signs that look
exatly the same but have different meaning) because of this....”
Well my invention of Mundbildschrift is not the same as
my set of “Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift”
Nevertheless – thanks to the studies of Erica Hoffmann
with my students we found out that it is not correct simply to add
the letters of a word (spoken language) next to the sign in order
to avoid “Mundbilder”
To my very surprise I had to understand – and this has
been such an amazing experience – that even little deaf children
having no idea of how to write the spoken word – show almost mouth
– and tongue movement patterns that almost look like the same – as
a “informed” signer would perform.
Mouth movements are part of the usual guessing game
trying to understand from lip-reading. From my actual point
of view these Mundbilder which I defined to stand for special
patterns of movements that might result in specific sounds of a
given spoken language come pretty close to the best representation
of what can be seen (!!!) looking at a signing person.
And you are right – SignPuddle – so far does not allow
to type latin letters – as you could do with the DOS Program. Did
you get the chance to look at the German new softare Delegs?
Now you get the chance to look for your signs almost
loke in the good old SWDOS –program.
In addition to that you are able to change the
preferred sign alternative in every document without any problem.
You can copy this specific sign and paste it with this same
variation. You can write the best translation of the signwriting
sentence beneath this line and hide or show one or both
lines! This is the perfect tool to support deaf students to
improve their spoken language skills. Just look at the attached
gif.
Our team is still busy, busy, busy to complete our
vision of an almost perfect SignWriting – software program to
support this idea which is the motto of our Editor: “Delegs” =
Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" = learn German assisted
by SignWriting".
All you need is a well fed dictionary and this
wonderful program.
All the best
Stefan
Von:
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [[log in to unmask]"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Im Auftrag von
Ingvild Roald Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober
2011 11:15 An: [log in to unmask]"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] Betreff: Re: Please help us
test SignWriter Studio Beta
5!!
?
I don't
think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth in
SignPuddle, can I?
On the other hand, I DO love the newer
software,
Ingvild
Date: Sun, 16 Oct
2011 09:11:06 -0700 From: [log in to unmask]" rel=nofollow
target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] Subject:
Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!! To: [log in to unmask]"
rel=nofollow target=_blank
ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
SignWriting
List
First, SignWriter DOS
is not past tense - it is not in the past. I am using it right
now, and so can anyone. Just download DOSBOX and install
it:
Second, software like
SignWriter DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually has little to do with
how you write. You can write the Norwegian mouth movements in any
style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6 too - software is not a theory
of writing - so there are no limits to your writing styles when it
comes to Mouth Movements in either software
program...
The
only limits to SignWriter DOS usage is that it uses a smaller
symbolset (sss1995) and it cannot write down in vertical columns -
but other than that there are no limitations on your writing
styles no matter which software program you choose
-
I
think what you really are saying is that you enjoyed writing the
old way - and that is fine because you can continue to write the
old way!
We
are adding a lot of Norwegian signs and documents - have you
notice?I am so happy about it!
There are close to
3000 signs now in the dictionary and the literature puddle is
growing too - we may need to move some of the individual signs
from the literature puddle to the dictionary puddle, but we will
do that work later - Thank you for all your old SignWriter DOS
files, Ingvild! I am happy to build a sign language corpus in
SignPuddle Online for all countries -
On
Oct 16, 2011, at 5:36 AM, Ingvild Roald
wrote:
Another good thing
about the DOS-program was the possibility to write the mouthed
'words' near the mouth, rather than using the later invention of
Mundbildschrift', for those signed languages that use a lot of
mouthing in the signs. Norwegian SL uses mouthing a lot,
especially for nouns. Signs that are the same in the hands and
other movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive
signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more
signs that look exatly the same but have different meaning)
because of this.
Ingvild
Date: Sat, 15 Oct
2011 19:03:24 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Please
help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!! To: [log in to unmask]
Part of it
is to understand that many educational systems use Sign
Writing to show the grammar comparing a local sign
language to the local spoken
language.
The useful
thing about SW Dos is that one can use the spoken
language, the signed language, and fingerspelling so that
one can compare gramatically, very similar to the current
German system.
Thank you
for your attention. Charles
Charles Butler [log in to unmask] 240-764-5748 Clear
writing moves business forward.
--- On Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Jonathan <[log in to unmask]> Subject:
Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta
5!! To: [log in to unmask] Date:
Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM
Hi
Charles, I just tried out SignWriter
DOS to see exactly what you are talking about.
I see you can type right over a sign if you want to,
below, above and if you type a long sentence the other
signs move over. Is it important for you that the be
place on top of the signs too? Or is it more
important for you to be able to write some text, then some
signs, then some text, etc? Had I
realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter Dos I
may have gotten permission to duplicate it very
faithfully. With SignWriter Studio some things may
be similar but none are identical. Right now I am
trying to get the three main parts of the program working,
the dictionary ( I will soon have a preview version
available), the signlist (for printing lists of signs from
the dictionary) and the document. Once I get
everything working again after changing to ISWA 2010 and a
new database, I am interested in implement a keyboard like
SignWriter DOS. But first things
first. The document isn't functional
right now. Also it only deals with vertical columns
of writing for the time being. It can have text
above the sign up to the width of the sign, then it wraps
onto more lines. At present there isn't any way of
writing just text without a sign but it shouldn't be too
hard to implement. The editing of the signs is
done in a popup box instead of directly in the document
like SignWriter DOS. A lot of thought has been put
into it to use the keyboard but it may need a few more
adjustments yet.
Thank you for sharing this
important feature with me and
list.
Jonathan
On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM,
Charles Butler wrote:
Jonathan, What I really want
is SignWriter DOS on a modern system.
In that
program you could interleave written alphabets and
sign writing. Clunky, but effective.
You
could clip signs from a narrative and put them
somewhere else.
It was a true typing system
for signing so that you could assemble a sign by
typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I know that
the current encoding of the ISWA is dependent upon a
linking of graphemes and coding
equivalents.
None of the Studios or other
efforts have gone back to actual interleaved Spoken
Language and Signed Language.
I can clip a sign and
put it in here
, in
TEXT, when does THAT come back in a program.
I feel like we are continuing to take a great
leap backward. Until one can type or easily
assemble, one can't' send email that is in sign
language with a spoken language. IF Chinese can do
it, I am disappointed in every Sign Writing compiler
on the market that can't interleave.
Charles
Butler
This is an email program and I can do
that, but the SW studio and all other programs do
not do that.
Charles
Butler [log in to unmask] 240-764-5748 Clear
writing moves business forward.
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