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What it comes down to is "you would not demand a Spanish speaker to learn German to communicate in his or her own home but here you are demanding a DSL primary user of DSL as his or her own Native Language to learn German in order to communicate to the wider culture.
Where is DSL as DSL, not as essentially a coding system for a signed language to interpret German. 

Charles Butler

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240-764-5748

Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 9:52 AM

From this message, I see we are understanding each other, your system is used for Deaf chlidren to learn to read and interpret and write spoken German and translate from German sign language into proper spoken or written German.
As a bridge system, it is doing its job. 
I am now looking at ASL written in SW without and independent of an English translation, written to be ASL as ASL not as a pidgin English on the hands to be translated into English for the hearing and speaking English population. The purposes are different.
However, most educators in the US are looking at teaching English to the Deaf and though communicating with the Deaf in ASL they are looking at getting the Deaf to understand and read and write spoken English. The purpose of the classroom is to teach English, not to
 examine and honor ASL in its own right as its own language.
So, ASL is still not an independent language, but a colonized language, one which is not a language "of the marketplace" with its own history, but one essentially secondary. We once had a newspaper in that language, assuming ASL as the first and only language of a Deaf population. 
I tried to teach SW to a class of Deaf educators in Ohio. Their ONLY argument was "why should I teach SW to ANY Deaf children when what I want to do is teach them ENGLISH", not some other writing system. "They", the Deaf children", don't have time to learn another writing system on top of English. 
They'd undersstand your GebaerdenSchrift because its only purpose is to teach German to Deaf kids, not be used as an everyday common writing system for Deaf Germans whose only language is German Sign Language. 

Charles
 Butler

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240-764-5748

Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 9:35 AM






 











Hello Bill,  

   

thank you very much for
your comment. Well I have to explain that your assumptions to not go along with
my practical experience of teaching deaf students for more than 10 years now
using this concept.  

It is not only for the
purpose of articulation but very much to identify a given sign in its meaning –
if you are asked to write a German translation. I had been so amazed to learn
how difficult it is for a deaf student to write down what you explain – even if
you use signed German. They are no fools so they catch the idea between the
lines – but they have to be trained to focus on themselves: Would I be able to
write it down. And lots and lots of mistakes related to vocabulary and grammar
will be the result if you really get to the point to run this test.  

   

My students do exactly
what you cannot imagine. With so much competence they write any
Mundbild-Sequence by hand – no problem at all whatsoever!  And of course we
tried many different things to reduce the amount of the Mundbilder. For example
if you count from one to hundred – it is self understood that you do not need  a
l l the Mundbilder. Same is true if you know that you are talking about colors.
If it comes down to sign names (Stefan, Valerie, Bill... ) that are known to
the students we follow the method from Nicaragua and add this tiny line
underneath – so no extra Mundbild is necessary.  

   

On the other hand –
believe me – You would not believe how much advantage can be taken out of every
single Mundbild if the words are difficult to differentiate or if they are new
terms ... 

   

Attached you find a
document – it is not finished. The whole document will be far more than 100
pages. And we feel blessed and honoured that the software Team at Hamburg are
so sensitive and competent to create exact that kind of software that really
fits to our needs. My students look at this document and are asked to write or
read out loud the German translation. Although it is written in signed German
it is a very difficult task. We understand that we have to edit this document in
order to be able to write the translation without too much guessing!  It is not
the final stage so far.  So we will add more Mundbilder in the future and I can
imagine the big smile in their faces because then they will be able to improve
their Spoken German skills dramatically!  

   

   

We also tried a string of
Mundbilder without the face circles as you suggest. – big smile  -  

   

We do not do that – guess
why!  

   

Right now it seems to be a
wonderful way to support deaf children to develop higher skills in Spoken
Language if we write GebaredenSchrift as we do.  

   

All the best 

   

Stefan  

   

   

   

   









Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im
Auftrag von Bill Reese

Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011
14:56

An:
[log in to unmask]

Betreff: Re: Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift 



   

Charles,

I have to agree with you on this.  It seems to be a lot of extra
writing.  But, as Stephen pointed out, it could be used for articulation
training but not necessarily the sign itself.  As a research or training
tool, you wouldn't have a child in school going to the blackboard to write
it.   



I would imagine that, for Ingvild and other's who's sign language
differentiates signs by mouth movements that the different signs could,
conceivably, be written with just the first mouth movement (if they're
dissimilar) or the mouth movement that is more dominant or is different between
signs.   



On the other hand, I would also presume it's possible to write a string of
mouth movements without the face, similar to the concept of writing Latin
letters next to the mouth.



Bill





On 10/17/2011 7:36 AM, Charles Butler wrote:  


 
  
  I guess people are misunderstanding what I'm saying,
  DELEGS is the closest that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people
  to show grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or
  within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own language and
  compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same concepts.   
  
     
  
  
  I would not want to show a Roman letter within a
  sign, I'd be showing a facial expression probably quite similar to the
  Gebarendenschrift, but I don't even know understand why so MANY faces
  compressed. One may as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which
  at least reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10
  faces. 
  
  
     
  
  
  I'm sorry, when I see a row of faces it confuses me,
  I think signs, not whole clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the
  articulation of a face and for showing that to help with lipreading, it may
  be perfect, but I look at it and think -- how can a child possibly write that
  on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o this is simple". I
  guess I'm looking for minimal pairs, what is the absolute minimum necessary
  to show an articulation, which for the Deaf in the US was to strip the body
  away and show much fewer facial markers than hearing users expected. The
  Gebaredenschrift is created to be articulated by computer, as all these
  programs are, but what of someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not a
  computer. If an EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in the world will
  not survive but a pencil and paper will still function. 
  
  
     
  
  
  Charles 
  
  
   

  

  Charles Butler

  [log in to unmask]

  240-764-5748

  Clear writing moves business forward.

  

  --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]>
  wrote:

  

   
  

  From: Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]>

  Subject: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift

  To: [log in to unmask]

  Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 6:49 AM 
  
  
  
  Hi Ingvild,  
    
  in order to
  understand the difference between Mundbildschrift – a tool to support
  articulation and listening-training -  and Mundbilder in der
  GebaerdenSchrift  (what you might write in Signwriting in order to
  present information coming from the lips and tongue) you may download this
  file.  
    
    
  http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20GebaerdenSchrift.pdf 
    
    
  Stefan ;-)  
    
    
    
    
    
  
  
  
  
  Von: SignWriting
  List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
  Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald

  Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober
  2011 11:58

  An: [log in to unmask]

  Betreff: Re: AW: Please help us
  test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!! 
  
    
  
  I
  agree, the Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift are not
  the same - but very useful.

  

  The writing of 'words' beside the mouth was / is just a lazy (and formerly
  only) way of writing the different mouthing of signs that are otherwise
  similar. With Mundbildschrift this can be done directly - so I do not really
  miss this oprtunity to write the latin letters near the mouth. Whith the
  latin letters the connection to the Norwegian word is stressed, but letters
  are not really part of SignWriting

  

  I have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture later this
  week in the Netherlands - as I am to your Mundbildschrift - I am recomending
  the use of SignWriting as part of making deaf children literate

  

  Ingvild  
  
  
  
  
  Date:
  Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:46:32 +0200

  From: [log in to unmask]

  Subject: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

  To: [log in to unmask] 
  
  Hi Ingvild and friends,
   
    
  it is
  interesting to understand that you agree with my concept that it is necessary
  to add information coming from the lips- and tongue movements in order to
  “understand” the exact meaning of a given sign.  
    
  “....Signs that are
  the same in the hands and other movements, differ in the mouthing and make
  distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more signs
  that look exatly the same but have different meaning) because of this....”  
    
  Well my invention of
  Mundbildschrift is not the same as my set of “Mundbilder in der
  GebaerdenSchrift”  
    
  Nevertheless – thanks
  to the studies of Erica Hoffmann with my students we found out that it is not
  correct simply to add the letters of a word (spoken language) next to the
  sign in order to avoid “Mundbilder” 
    
  To my very surprise I
  had to understand – and this has been such an amazing experience – that even
  little deaf children having no idea of how to write the spoken word – show
  almost mouth – and tongue movement patterns that almost look like the same –
  as a “informed” signer would perform.  
    
  Mouth movements are
  part of the usual guessing game trying to understand from lip-reading.
   From my actual point of view these Mundbilder which I defined to stand
  for special patterns of movements that might result in specific sounds of a
  given spoken language come pretty close to the best representation of what
  can be seen (!!!) looking at a signing person.  
    
  And you are right –
  SignPuddle – so far does not allow to type latin letters – as you could do
  with the DOS Program. Did you get the chance to look at the German new
  softare Delegs?  
    
  Now you get the chance
  to look for your signs almost loke in the good old SWDOS –program.  
    
  In addition to that
  you are able to change the preferred sign alternative in every document
  without any problem. You can copy this specific sign and paste it with this
  same variation. You can write the best translation of the signwriting
   sentence beneath this line and hide or show one or both lines! This is
  the perfect tool to support deaf students to improve their spoken language
  skills. Just look at the attached gif. 
    
  Our team is still
  busy, busy, busy to complete our vision of an almost perfect SignWriting –
  software program to support this idea which is the motto of our Editor:
  “Delegs” = Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift"  = learn German
  assisted by SignWriting". 
    
  All you need is a well fed dictionary and
  this wonderful program.  
    
  All the best  
  Stefan  
    
    
    
    
    
    
  
  
  
  
  Von:
  SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
  Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald

  Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober
  2011 11:15

  An: [log in to unmask]

  Betreff: Re: Please help us test
  SignWriter Studio Beta 5!! 
  
    
  
  ?

  

  I don't think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth in
  SignPuddle, can I?

  

  On the other hand, I DO love the newer software,

  

  Ingvild  
  
  
  
  
  Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:11:06
  -0700

  From: [log in to unmask]

  Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

  To: [log in to unmask]

  

  SignWriting List 
  
  October 16, 2011 
  
  
    
  
  
  Hi Ingvild and Charles! 
  
  
    
  
  
  Two thoughts... 
  
  
    
  
  
  First, SignWriter DOS is not past
  tense - it is not in the past. I am using it right now, and so can anyone.
  Just download DOSBOX and install it: 
  
  
    
  
  
  DOSBOX 
  
  
  http://www.dosbox.com/ 
  
  
    
  
  
  Second, software like SignWriter
  DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually has little to do with how you write. You can
  write the Norwegian mouth movements in any style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6
  too - software is not a theory of writing - so there are no limits to your writing
  styles when it comes to Mouth Movements in either software program... 
  
  
    
  
  
  The only limits to SignWriter DOS
  usage is that it uses a smaller symbolset (sss1995) and it cannot write down
  in vertical columns - but other than that there are no limitations on your
  writing styles no matter which software program you choose - 
  
  
    
  
  
  I think what you really are
  saying is that you enjoyed writing the old way - and that is fine because you
  can continue to write the old way! 
  
  
    
  
  
  smile - 
  
  
    
  
  
  We are adding a lot of Norwegian
  signs and documents - have you notice?I am so happy about it! 
  
  
    
  
  
  SignPuddle for Norway 
  
  
  http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/index.html#sgn-NO 
  
  
    
  
  
  There are close to 3000 signs now
  in the dictionary and the literature puddle is growing too - we may need to
  move some of the individual signs from the literature puddle to the
  dictionary puddle, but we will do that work later - Thank you for all your
  old SignWriter DOS files, Ingvild! I am happy to build a sign language corpus
  in SignPuddle Online for all countries - 
  
  
    
  
  
  Val ;-) 
  
  
    
  
  
  --------- 
  
  
    
  
  
    
  
  
    
  
  
    
  
  
  On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:36 AM,
  Ingvild Roald wrote: 
  
  
    
  
  
  Another
  good thing about the DOS-program was the possibility to write the mouthed 'words'
  near the mouth, rather than using the later invention of Mundbildschrift',
  for those signed languages that use a lot of mouthing in the signs. Norwegian
  SL uses mouthing a lot, especially for nouns. Signs that are the same in the
  hands and other movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive signs
  that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly
  the same but have different meaning) because of this.

  

  Ingvild  
  
  
  
  
  Date:
  Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:03:24 -0700

  From: [log in to unmask]

  Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

  To: [log in to unmask] 
  
   
    
    Part of it is to
    understand that many educational systems use Sign Writing to show the
    grammar comparing a local sign language to the local spoken language.  
    
      
    
    
    The useful thing
    about SW Dos is that one can use the spoken language, the signed language, and
    fingerspelling so that one can compare gramatically, very similar to the
    current German system.  
    
    
      
    
    
    Thank you for your
    attention. Charles 
    
    
    

    

    Charles Butler

    [log in to unmask]

    240-764-5748

    Clear writing moves business forward.

    

    --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
    

    From: Jonathan <[log in to unmask]>

    Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

    To: [log in to unmask]

    Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM 
    
    
    Hi Charles,

        I just tried out SignWriter DOS to see exactly what you
    are talking about.   I see you can type right over a sign if you
    want to, below, above and if you type a long sentence the other signs move
    over.  Is it important for you that the be place on top of the signs
    too?  Or is it more important for you to be able to write some text,
    then some signs, then some text, etc?

        Had I realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter
    Dos I may have gotten permission to duplicate it very faithfully. 
    With SignWriter Studio some things may be similar but none are
    identical.  Right now I am trying to get the three main parts of the
    program working, the dictionary ( I will soon have a preview version
    available), the signlist (for printing lists of signs from the dictionary)
    and the document.   Once I get everything working again after
    changing to ISWA 2010 and a new database, I am interested in implement a
    keyboard like SignWriter DOS.  But first things first.

        The document isn't functional right now.  Also it
    only deals with vertical columns of writing for the time being.  It
    can have text above the sign up to the width of the sign, then it wraps
    onto more lines.  At present there isn't any way of writing just text
    without a sign but it shouldn't be too hard to implement.   The
    editing of the signs is done in a popup box instead of directly in the
    document like SignWriter DOS.  A lot of thought has been put into it
    to use the keyboard but it may need a few more adjustments yet.

    

    Thank you for sharing this important feature with me and list.

    

    Jonathan

    

    On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM, Charles Butler wrote: 
    
     
      
      Jonathan, What I
      really want is SignWriter DOS on a modern system.

      

      In that program you could interleave written alphabets and sign writing.
      Clunky, but effective.

      

      You could clip signs from a narrative and put them somewhere else.

      

      It was a true typing system for signing so that you could assemble a sign
      by typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I know that the current
      encoding of the ISWA is dependent upon a linking of graphemes and coding
      equivalents.

      

      None of the Studios or other efforts have gone back to actual interleaved
      Spoken Language and Signed Language.  I can clip a sign and put it in here

       , in TEXT, when does THAT
      come back in a program. I feel like we are continuing to take a
      great leap backward. Until one can type or easily assemble, one can't'
      send email that is in sign language with a spoken language. IF Chinese
      can do it, I am disappointed in every Sign Writing compiler on the market
      that can't interleave. 

      

      Charles Butler

      

      This is an email program and I can do that, but the SW studio and all
      other programs do not do that. 

      

      

      Charles Butler

      [log in to unmask]

      240-764-5748

      Clear writing moves business forward. 
      
      
      
      
      
      
        
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