Hi Val,

I agree –

 

“I think they will see there is a real use for the original way the system was designed –“

 

All the best

Stefan

 

 


Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Valerie Sutton
Gesendet: Montag, 27. Februar 2012 21:08
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: both-hand arrow

 

SignWriting List

February 27, 2012

 

Hello Eda, Yuri, Fernando and everyone -

 

Thank you for writing, and thank you, Yuri, for your explanation in Portuguese - I am looking forward to studying your messages too - I do appreciate the effort you made. Thank you!

 

And I am so looking forward to telling the world about Fernando Capovilla's new dictionary which will be published soon. I feel so honored that Fernando and his team have included SignWriting and worked so hard on the thousands of entries - A huge job - For those who do not know about the dictionaries:

 

Novo Diet-LIBRAS Dictionary

http://www.signwriting.org/brazil/NovoDeitLibras.html

 

So Eda, Yuri, Fernando, and everyone - Your efforts to write LIBRAS are admirable - Fernando and I have already discussed the issues of SignSpellings - There were so many different Deaf writers of the dictionaries which Fernando has produced, and we all know that some of them may not have had the time for proper instruction in SignWriting…and we have discussed trying to correct or re-write some of the SignSpellings in the dictionaries, and I actually did a little work on that with Fernando last year, but there are so many signs that I felt overwhelmed, So it is no one's fault, but there are some SignSpellings that are not the way I write, in the dictionaries…But I LOVE the dictionaries…no matter what...I am very happy and proud of the publications because we all know that writing has to start somewhere…without dictionaries there would be no writing at all…and so that is why I am explaining this to you all now, so that you can be informed and share the information with your co-workers and writers - Of course we can understand each other's writings, but it is good to know why we write as we do….

 

I believe that most writers do not know this about the Movement Arrows - and if they understand the reason behind the Black, White and Grey (General) Arrowheads, I think they will see there is a real use for the original way the system was designed -

 

Here is the explanation:

 

The black arrow paints the right movement path. The white arrow paints the left movement path. When the right and left hands move far apart from each other, they paint two separate paths - one black and one white. That way, we can see the difference between movement with the right hand and movement with the left hand - This is important for linguistic reasons and for writing complex movement sequences when writing storytelling…Here are easy examples:

 

[log in to unmask]" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes>

 

 

 

BUT, imagine that your two hands move, and the black movement path writes on top of the white movement path…That is a grey or General Movement Arrow - as you can see here, in the sign for FOLLOW in ASL, the right hand is behind the left hand and follows the left hand…so the two movement paths blend and become one path…they are not contacting each other in this case, but it is a General Arrowhead because the paths blend...

 

[log in to unmask]" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes>

 

 

So now, let us take your examples. In the signs attached below, these signs show that the two hands are far apart from each other and move with separate paths. These signs are written correctly in this example, because they show the black and white paths a good space from each other, just like the starting position of the hands:

 

[log in to unmask]" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes>

 

 

 

 

But below, these signs are read differently. They mean something else. They show me that the hands start far apart from each other, but the Movement Path is blended together into one, which means that the black paint and the white paint are writing on top of each other…so that must mean that the two hands moved into the center to be closer to each other and then moved down either on top of each other, or maybe contacting each other, to create a single grey movement path going down - it is a different movement for me - 

 

 

[log in to unmask]" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes>

 

 

Of course I can guess what you meant, because I know there are misunderstandings in the teachings, but I want you to know, Eda, how the system was designed. For simple signs like these I can imagine you wonder why it is necessary to show paths so exactly? That is because when we start to write complex storytelling, there are times when the Black, White and Grey (General) arrowheads are the only information we have for complex sequences - sometimes the right hand can be over on the left side of the body, or behind the body, in mime like sequences and the three movement paths are needed to be able to read the movement correctly…

 

Thank you for asking questions and no worries - If you can start writing the way the system is designed, it will help when writing storytelling in LIBRAS later. Have you done that kind of writing? Have you written books, or long stories?

 

Val ;-)

 

-------------

 

 

 

 

 

On Feb 27, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Eda AMORim wrote:



Olá, Val tudo bem?

Entendi a sua explicação.

Mas me parece que a maioria das pessoas que usam a escrita de sinais entenderam que; se as duas mão fazem o mesmo movimento para a mesma direção , então usa-se seta de ponta aberta (General Arrow ) independente se elas estão sobrepostas ou não. Um exemplo disso são os sinais extraídos do dicionário Trilíngue  Capovilla.

 

Hello, Val okay?
I understood his explanation.
But it seems that most people who use writing signals understood that if both hands are doing the same move in the same direction, then it uses open-headed arrow (General Arrow) regardless if they are overlapping or not. An example of this signals are extracted from the dictionary Trilingual Capovilla.

 

   

 Orgulhoso                orientador        original

 

Me parece que se tais sinais forem escritos com a seta de ponta aberta (General Arrow ) a leitura não saíra errada, porque entendo que as duas mão se movimentam para a mesma direção.

 

It seems to me that such signs are written with the open-headed arrow (General Arrow) reading had not come out wrong, because I believe that both hands movein the same direction.

¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

Essa então seria a forma correta de escrever os sinais acima? Me parece que nas duas grafias não haverá erro na leitura dos sinais.

This then would be the correct way to write the above signs? Seems to me that the two spellings no error in reading the signs.

 

Val, desculpe se não estou entendendo ou se fiz alguma confusão.

Val, sorry if I do not understand or did some confusion.

 

Beijos



Eda Amorim
Intérprete/Tradutora e Profa. de Língua Brasileira de Sinais
Especialista em Educação de Surdos

 CENTRO EDUCACIONAL CULTURA SURDA LTDA.
(11) 3416-7888 
(11) 2626-4945
(11) 9168-6761 
[log in to unmask]

www.culturasurda.com.br
 
 
 
 
 


Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 06:51:27 -0800
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: both-hand arrow
To: [log in to unmask]

It will be a pleasure!

I love spelling! (For the sign languages... For the oral languages , NO! NEVERlol) 

--- Em sáb, 25/2/12, Valerie Sutton <[log in to unmask]> escreveu:


De: Valerie Sutton <[log in to unmask]>
Assunto: Re: both-hand arrow
Para: [log in to unmask]
Data: Sábado, 25 de Fevereiro de 2012, 5:31

SignWriting List

February 24, 2012

 

You know, the General Arrow is not a "both-hand" arrow - it is an "overlapping path" arrow -

 

Yuri - Can I ask you a favor? Can you teach the "SignWriting in Brazil Facebook group " about Overlapping Paths in Portuguese?

 

Google Translate does not do a perfect job - Here is the Google Translation - Can you fix the Portuguese for me? Many thanks!!  Val ;-)

 



----------

 

As setas direita, esquerda e Geral estão representando "os caminhos do movimento".


Imagine sua mão direita tem tinta preta sobre ela. Sua mão esquerda tem pintura branca. Há um caminho preto, e um caminho branco mostrando o movimento no espaço.

Agora imagine duas mãos se movendo para baixo, lado a lado. Eles pintam dois caminhos separados no espaço ... um caminho negro e um caminho branco.

Mas agora imaginar as duas mãos, com um acima do outro, mas não contactando ... simplesmente um acima do outro.Quando as duas mãos começam a mover-se juntos, as tintas acima um em cima do caminho do outro no fundo ... Os doiscombinam caminhos ... E quando eles se misturam ... você não pode ver preto ou branco - torna-se cinza e ... de modo que o caminho é o GREY Arrowhead Geral ...

Eles também poderiam ser entrar em contato ... mas os caminhos a preto e branco têm de se sobrepor, para se tornar cinza.Não requer contato.

Isto é ensinado nos livros didáticos "Basics Signwriting" a partir de 2009, que é gratuito para download na web. Ir para:

SignWriting Aulas on-line
http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons

e baixar o número 1 na página web - Noções básicas chamadas Signwriting.

Aqui está o trecho do livro, na página 34 do livro (número de página no livro) ... a página PDF é a página 39 -





-----



The Right, Left and General Arrowheads are representing "movement paths".

 

Imagine your right hand has black paint on it. Your left hand has white paint on it. There is a black path, and a white path showing movement in space.

 

Now imagine two hands moving down, side by side. They paint two separate paths in space…a black path and a white path.

 

But now imagine the two hands with one above the other one, but NOT contacting…just simply one above the other. When the two hands start to move down together, the one above paints on top of the path of the one on the bottom…the two paths blend…and when they blend…you can no longer see black or white - it becomes grey… and so the GREY path is the General Arrowhead…

 

They could also be contacting…but the black and white paths have to overlap, to become GREY. It does not require contact.

 

This is taught in the textbook "SignWriting Basics" from 2009, which is free for download on the web. Go to:

 

SignWriting Lessons Online

 

and download number 1 on that web page - called SignWriting Basics.

 

Here is the excerpt from that book, on page 34 in the book (number page in the book)… the PDF page is page 39 -

 

 

 

 

[log in to unmask]" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Feb 24, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Yuri Barreto wrote:

 

     Well, in an economical way, I believe that is so good ... 

--- Em sex, 24/2/12, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> escreveu:


De: Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]>
Assunto: AW: both-hand arrow
Para: [log in to unmask]
Data: Sexta-feira, 24 de Fevereiro de 2012, 19:50

Hi friends,

 

 

 

[log in to unmask]" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes>

 

 

I would prefer this spelling –

 

Stefan ;-)

 


Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag vonValerie Sutton
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 21:30
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: both-hand arrow

 

SignWriting List

February 24, 2012

 

Regarding this, let me show you a really beautiful writing in SignWriting from Brazil, by Yuri, who posted this on Facebook, and thank you, Yuri, for this posting - I was so happy to see it - I love seeing your SignWriting - I hope you don't mind that I point to one of your SignSpellings ;-)

 

[log in to unmask]" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes>

 

 

 

Notice the arrow in the first sign -

 

In this case, for me, this is not a General Arrowhead - the two paths are not overlapping into GREY…it would be a right and left arrowhead - The right arrow is written over the right hand and the left arrow is written over the left hand - the Rub symbol could be written once between the two arrows… here is an example...

 

 

 

[log in to unmask]" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes>

 

 

Val ;-)

 

 

--------

 

On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:

 

SignWriting List

February 24, 2012

 

Hello SignWriting List, Honza, Ingvild, Kimberley -

 

Thank you for the question and the responses… I realize that you may be using the General Arrowhead differently than the way I teach it…and all is ok. Part of the reason there has been confusion is that our older textbooks did not explain this well, in fact I believe the old textbook said "if they contact, it is General, and that is true, but it is not the whole story… so you can put the blame on my old textbooks ;-)

 

I have wanted to explain this better for a long time…It is a subject I had been planning to bring up here on the List, so thank you for the question Honza -

 

You see, the General Arrowhead means "Overlapping Paths". I always imagine Marcel Marceau, the famous classic mime artist, with his hands in black and white paint, painting imaginary paths of movement in space…

 

So here is how I teach it:

 

The Right, Left and General Arrowheads are representing "movement paths".

 

Imagine your right hand has black paint on it. Your left hand has white paint on it. There is a black path, and a white path showing movement in space.

 

Now imagine two hands moving down, side by side. They paint two separate paths in space…a black path and a white path.

 

But now imagine the two hands with one above the other one, but NOT contacting…just simply one above the other. When the two hands start to move down together, the one above paints on top of the path of the one on the bottom…the two paths blend…and when they blend…you can no longer see black or white - it becomes grey… and so the GREY path is the General Arrowhead…

 

They could also be contacting…but the black and white paths have to overlap, to become GREY. It does not require contact.

 

This is taught in the textbook "SignWriting Basics" from 2009, which is free for download on the web. Go to:

 

SignWriting Lessons Online

 

and download number 1 on that web page - called SignWriting Basics.

 

Here is the excerpt from that book, on page 34 in the book (number page in the book)… the PDF page is page 39 -

 

 

 

[log in to unmask]" apple-width=yes apple-height=yes>

 

------

 

 

 

 

Val ;-)

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
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