Hi Charles - I just thought I'd mention that I felt the same about the overlapping faces at first, but as I've been observing Stefan's classroom I've found that it quite easy to take in the information from the MB in a glance. I think it may be similar to how some people at first felt that SignWriting had too much detail - but later found in practice that one need not parse all the elements out while reading but rather can take in the sign holistically.
But of course, as you know, this is a different issue than the question of whether fuller representations of mouthings are useful in a given case.
Sent from my iPhone
Stefan, although MundBuilder is fascinating, I find it more confusing than readable. I simply cannot read overlapping circles. That's why I prefer SignWriting to MundBilder
I don't want you to think that I don't think that Mundbilder or SpeechWriting doesn't have use. I actually think quite the opposite. I have actually used it in my writing to show when someone is mouthing a word, where that word is very important. I just don't see Rafaela's question as how to write the mouthing of the words "brumm" and "papa", but as common mouth movement or gestures in LGP. I may be wrong in seeing Rafaela's question as something different because I am not a native to LGP. Having said that, I agree with out that there shouldn't be a guessing game when the exact movements are very important. Since I am assuming that these are common mouth movements within LGP, it is most likely that there are several nuance differences in how different people do the mouth movements and therefore would actually be more of a guessing game to be so exact with something that people have never thought
It's like in ASL, there are several mouth gestures that people do that are not always done the same. For example, the video that I did for "brumm" might be done with a more pouted lips if it were done by my sister or puffed cheeks if it were done by my younger brother, but they are all the same meaning. The way that I wrote it could be read and understood to mean the same thing by each of us. This is very different than if we were mouthing each other's names because the exact mouth movement is very important. So I see mouthing and mouth movements as two different things with mouthing benefiting from SpeechWriting. I hope that helps make clear why I chose to write they way that I did.
On Jun 18, 2012, at 9:19 AM, Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:
Hi Rafaela, Valerie, Adam, ...
Well in order to „understand“ what the reader is supposed to do, it is better to minimize the guessing game.
- smile -
As I understood Rafaela – she asked for a way to write a sign that shows a mouth as if saying (without voice) “brumm” or “papa”
This is what we call “Mundbilder” within SignWriting – This kind of speechwriting is already pretty good defined and it can be adopted to various “spoken languages” if you focus on the symbols that are already defined...
In this case it is no problem to write four
head circles and the additional “Mundbilder”
In the end you show up with a written sign that is exact and easy to understand, to perform, to read ...
Of course there are other signs in sign languages that ask for mouth-movements and facial expressions that are not associated with spoken language but with mimic.
Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Rafaela Silva
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Juni 2012 04:25
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: AW: Mouth symbols
By your answer I gather that you use 4 differents faces do represent one lip movement, that's right? What I want is just one so I can aply to a sign.
> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 10:07:18 +0200
> From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: AW: Mouth symbols
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Hi Rafaela,
> you probably know that in Germany we use a lot of "Mundbilder"
> I defined a set of symbols to represent these lip and tongue movements that
> go along with what you can see if a person is speaking (even without sound)
> I just wrote your two signs
> 1) it is a short "Brumm" a long "U" could be interpreted differently but in
> general I do not distinguish between long and short vorcals if it is not for
> the purpose of articulation.
> 2) Papa - is easy to understand.
> Have a great day
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Rafaela Silva
> Gesendet: Freitag, 15. Juni 2012 23:41
> An: [log in to unmask]
> Betreff: Mouth symbols
> Hello everyone. Hope everthing is well.
> I have 2 doubts/questions and I hope someone can help me!
> 1 - SW have a facial symbol for the expression "bruumm" that we do with the
mouth, for example, when we want to imitate or explain the sound of a
> 2 - SW have a symbol that represents the mouth opening and closing
> consecutively? (As babies do whe they are starting to talk, like
> Thank you.