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Thanks Charles - if you could send them to my gmail account would
appreciate, as pictures pasted into the emails don't show up on this old
email - my gmail is [log in to unmask]
thanks!
maria

> Exactly, working with symbols from each signed language so that the
> examples were strictly those shapes actually used in Brazilian Sign
> Language and Amharic Sign Language respectively. I will send you the
> shapes on the other computer. 
>  
> Charles Butler
> [log in to unmask]
> 240-764-5748
> Clear writing moves business forward.
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: MARIA GALEA <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: An alphabet for a specific sign language from the ISWA 2010
>
> Thank you Charles -
> intersting! do you remember the two specific handshapes that were not used
> respectively in the different langauges? i will give credit to you for
> this finding of course, if you do rem. them, if not I might mention this
> example by you, without giving further details.
>
> also by any chance do you have the link to the work 'SignWriting for
> Everyday Use'? so when you say you were helping to edit them in Portugese
> and Amharic, you mean in the spoken languages right? so a translation of
> SignWriting for Everyday Use in those languages - where they changed
> examples of signwritten signs to include the symbols of their languages
> and removed examples that did not have symbols that represented the
> symbols of their sign langauges? just making sure I understood..
>
> thanks for your feedback charles
> maria
>
>> In helping to edit Sign Writing for Everyday Use in both Portuguese and
>> Amharic, we were challenged in using examples from the languages we were
>> creating textbooks to ensure that the handshapes we used were only those
>> actually used in the language. I remember finding one handshape that was
>> used often in ASL but had not been included in the LIBRAS textbook, and
>> one handshape that was used in one sign in LIBRAS that was not directly
>> cited in ASL so that this discussion certainly brings back memories. 
>>  
>> Charles Butler
>> [log in to unmask]
>> 240-764-5748
>> Clear writing moves business forward.
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>  From: Claudia S. Bianchini <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 3:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: An alphabet for a specific sign language from the ISWA 2010
>>
>>
>> Hello Maria and all,
>> you can find the LIS (italian SL) "alphabet" (I dislike this word to
>> speak
>> about SW, but... who cares now :-P ) in the SW Italian manual: it's free
>> to download in the "download" section of www.visel.cnr.it
>> The adjustement are only for configurations and it was done with
>> ISWA2004... but it can give you some ideas. But take on vount that it's
>> a
>> selection based on the "feelings" of SW users and is done just for
>> writing
>> usage (not for transcribing). In my thesis I demostrate that their
>> "feelings" sometimes don't correspond to their real usage of
>> configurations.
>> Claudia
>> PS: I'll discuss (in french) my thesis on SW the 18th of september 2012
>> in
>> Paris... if someone is interested.
>>
>> 2012/7/30 Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]>
>>
>> I completely agree with you on a smaller symbol set. I thought we were
>> done with the work in Brazil, but Fernando Capovilla has been able to
>> greatly expand and focus the work so that Brazil may be able to have a
>> defined symbol set soon. 
>>> 
>>>Charles Butler
>>>[log in to unmask]
>>>240-764-5748
>>>Clear writing moves business forward.
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________
>>>
>>>From: MARIA GALEA <[log in to unmask]>
>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 5:59 PM
>>>Subject: Re: An alphabet for a specific sign language from the ISWA 2010
>>>
>>>
>>>Thank you Adam for your feedback. Your comment on the benefit of having
>>> a
>>>smaller symbol-set (an alphabet) for specific languages is very much
>>>appreciated, and I will include your comment and refer to you (if you
>>> give
>>>me permission).
>>>
>>>Any feedback is appreciated at this stage, because so little has been
>>>written about the subject of specific alphabets. Additionally being who
>>>you are, a Deaf person/ASL user and surely one of the most highly
>>> skilled
>>>SignWriters - your comment is invaluable! Thank you!
>>>maria
>>>
>>>> As far as I know, there hasn't been much, if any, on the type of work
>>>> you
>>>> are asking about. I think it is because there are still so many things
>>>> that haven't been written in every sign language that it is still hard
>>>> to
>>>> say that these symbols will never be used in a given sign language.
>>>> However, the information that you have found means that you can focus
>>>> on
>>>> teaching people
>>  those symbols first rather than going through all in
>>>> order. Hopefully we will get to that point with more sign languages.
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 29, 2012, at 2:10 PM, "MARIA GALEA" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Once again thank you Charles and Val for your feedback!
>>>>>
>>>>> I understand that the symbol frequency is a good way to find out
>>>>> symbols
>>>>> used to write a specific language - and it can be done - it's a
>>>>> wonderful
>>>>> tool in Puddle (thank you Steve!) and I have used it very recently to
>>>>> analyze the Maltese Sign Language alphabet. However it's not the
>>>>> intention
>>>>> of the work to figure out other languages alphabets etc. What I need
>>>>> to
>>>>> know is whether this work has been carried out by other researchers
>>  or
>>>>> teachers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am fully aware (as i have taught SignWriting this way in the past
>>>>> also)
>>>>> that the ISWA 2010 can be used as it is to write any sign language -
>>>>> and
>>>>> so it's natural that the process of identifying the alphabet of a
>>>>> language
>>>>> may be bypassed. That is, you can still teach the writing of a
>>>>> specific
>>>>> language WITHOUT having yet discovered the alphabet, because ALL
>>>>> symbols
>>>>> of any alphabet are there and ready in the ISWA 2010.
>>>>>
>>>>> However just to summarize one small finding from my work - for
>>>>> Maltese
>>>>> Sign Language, 268 base symbols are used from the ISWA's 652. On
>>>>> further
>>>>> analysis the number may be reduced to 248 symbol.
>>>>>
>>>>> So Maltese Sign Language has an alphabet of 248 symbols - now once
>>>>> this
>>>>> work is completed - future manuals for the writing of Maltese
>>  sign
>>>>> language need not cover the 403 base symbols that are NOT used, are
>>>>> NOT
>>>>> part of this specific language. See the point I'm after? There may be
>>>>> benefits from having the alphabet set.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is one very thin slice of the work, there is a long way to go...
>>>>>
>>>>> maria
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>>> July 28, 2012
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Maria and Charles -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, Charles is correct. Using the Symbol Frequency feature in
>>>>>> SignPuddle
>>>>>> Online is an excellent way to find all of the symbols used to write
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> signs in that specific database. For example, imagine you are
>>>>>> searching
>>>>>> for all of the handshapes used in American Sign Language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Go to the ASL SignPuddle
>>  dictionary:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ASL SignPuddle Dictionary
>>>>>> http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=4
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Click on Symbol Frequency.
>>>>>> 3. Click on the Hands category.
>>>>>> 4. Click on the SymbolGroup you want.
>>>>>> 5. Notice in that group, which symbols have numbers under them, and
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> ones are grey?
>>>>>> 6. The grey symbols are symbols not used in writing ASL signs in the
>>>>>> ASL
>>>>>> dictionary puddle.
>>>>>> 7. The numbers under the symbols shows how many times that symbol
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> to write signs in this database�
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See attached -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>  -------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 27, 2012, at 10:38 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fastest way to do that is to look at "symbol frequency" in any
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the SignPuddles. This would give you the current research on the
>>>>>>> minimal
>>>>>>> pairs of a language. For example, one of the earlier publications
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> LIBRAS had determined a certain number of handshapes (around 96),
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> people began putting in the variants from Sao Paulo, Rio de
>>>>>>> Janeiro,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Rio Grande de Sul and the number expanded. Each day we've gotten a
>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>> more handshapes. When I was there in 2000, there were two
>>>>>>> handshapes,
>>>>>>> for example, using the ring finger and the thumb in contact,
>>>>>>> "droga"
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> "noiva", which
>>  depend on where the thumb is placed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Butler
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> 240-764-5748
>>>>>>> Clear writing moves business forward.
>>>>>>> From: MARIA GALEA <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 11:34 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: An alphabet for a specific sign language from the ISWA
>>>>>>> 2010
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Me again with one more question..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has anyone out
>>  there studied the alphabet of his/her sign language-
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> is  has anyone derived a smaller amount of symbols from the ISWA
>>>>>>> 2010,
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> the significant symbols (an alphabet) for writing a specific
>>>>>>> language
>>>>>>> e.g.
>>>>>>> ASL, BSL, Norwegian Sign Language, German sign language etc?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you know of any such work could you direct me to it please.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have carried it out would love to include and refer to your
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> my dissertation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once again I truly appreciate ANY feedback whatsoever,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Maria
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>  -----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting
>>>>>> Read & Write Sign Languages
>>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignPuddle Online
>>>>>> Write SignWriting in the Clouds!
>>>>>> Documents, Dictionaries, SignMail
>>>>>> http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting Wiki
>>>>>> Wiki-style Articles in Sign Languages
>>>>>> http://www.signbank.org/wiki
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>>> Technical Support: Ask questions...
>>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting Literature Project
>>>>>> Writing Literature in Sign Languages
>>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org/literature
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting Encyclopedia Projects
>>>>>> Writing Encyclopedias in Sign Languages
>>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org/encyclopedia
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> Help Educational Non-Profit Organization
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> SignWriting Shop
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>>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org/shop
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deaf Action Committee For SignWriting
>>>>>> Center For Sutton Movement Writing
>>>>>> a US educational nonprofit organization
>>>>>> PO Box 517, La Jolla, CA, 92038, USA
>>>>>> Tel: 858-456-0098  Skype: valeriesutton
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>> http://facebook.com/SignWriting
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Claudia S. Bianchini
>> PhD Student @ Univ. Paris8 + CNRS-UMR7023-SFL
>> PhD Student @ Univ. Studi di Perugia + CNR-ISTC-SLDS
>> [log in to unmask]