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Thanks Charles - if you could send them to my gmail account would appreciate, as pictures pasted into the emails don't show up on this old email - my gmail is [log in to unmask] thanks! maria > Exactly, working with symbols from each signed language so that the > examples were strictly those shapes actually used in Brazilian Sign > Language and Amharic Sign Language respectively. I will send you the > shapes on the other computer. > > Charles Butler > [log in to unmask] > 240-764-5748 > Clear writing moves business forward. > > > ________________________________ > From: MARIA GALEA <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:49 PM > Subject: Re: An alphabet for a specific sign language from the ISWA 2010 > > Thank you Charles - > intersting! do you remember the two specific handshapes that were not used > respectively in the different langauges? i will give credit to you for > this finding of course, if you do rem. them, if not I might mention this > example by you, without giving further details. > > also by any chance do you have the link to the work 'SignWriting for > Everyday Use'? so when you say you were helping to edit them in Portugese > and Amharic, you mean in the spoken languages right? so a translation of > SignWriting for Everyday Use in those languages - where they changed > examples of signwritten signs to include the symbols of their languages > and removed examples that did not have symbols that represented the > symbols of their sign langauges? just making sure I understood.. > > thanks for your feedback charles > maria > >> In helping to edit Sign Writing for Everyday Use in both Portuguese and >> Amharic, we were challenged in using examples from the languages we were >> creating textbooks to ensure that the handshapes we used were only those >> actually used in the language. I remember finding one handshape that was >> used often in ASL but had not been included in the LIBRAS textbook, and >> one handshape that was used in one sign in LIBRAS that was not directly >> cited in ASL so that this discussion certainly brings back memories. >> >> Charles Butler >> [log in to unmask] >> 240-764-5748 >> Clear writing moves business forward. >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Claudia S. Bianchini <[log in to unmask]> >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 3:59 AM >> Subject: Re: An alphabet for a specific sign language from the ISWA 2010 >> >> >> Hello Maria and all, >> you can find the LIS (italian SL) "alphabet" (I dislike this word to >> speak >> about SW, but... who cares now :-P ) in the SW Italian manual: it's free >> to download in the "download" section of www.visel.cnr.it >> The adjustement are only for configurations and it was done with >> ISWA2004... but it can give you some ideas. But take on vount that it's >> a >> selection based on the "feelings" of SW users and is done just for >> writing >> usage (not for transcribing). In my thesis I demostrate that their >> "feelings" sometimes don't correspond to their real usage of >> configurations. >> Claudia >> PS: I'll discuss (in french) my thesis on SW the 18th of september 2012 >> in >> Paris... if someone is interested. >> >> 2012/7/30 Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]> >> >> I completely agree with you on a smaller symbol set. I thought we were >> done with the work in Brazil, but Fernando Capovilla has been able to >> greatly expand and focus the work so that Brazil may be able to have a >> defined symbol set soon. >>> >>>Charles Butler >>>[log in to unmask] >>>240-764-5748 >>>Clear writing moves business forward. >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> >>>From: MARIA GALEA <[log in to unmask]> >>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2012 5:59 PM >>>Subject: Re: An alphabet for a specific sign language from the ISWA 2010 >>> >>> >>>Thank you Adam for your feedback. Your comment on the benefit of having >>> a >>>smaller symbol-set (an alphabet) for specific languages is very much >>>appreciated, and I will include your comment and refer to you (if you >>> give >>>me permission). >>> >>>Any feedback is appreciated at this stage, because so little has been >>>written about the subject of specific alphabets. Additionally being who >>>you are, a Deaf person/ASL user and surely one of the most highly >>> skilled >>>SignWriters - your comment is invaluable! Thank you! >>>maria >>> >>>> As far as I know, there hasn't been much, if any, on the type of work >>>> you >>>> are asking about. I think it is because there are still so many things >>>> that haven't been written in every sign language that it is still hard >>>> to >>>> say that these symbols will never be used in a given sign language. >>>> However, the information that you have found means that you can focus >>>> on >>>> teaching people >> those symbols first rather than going through all in >>>> order. Hopefully we will get to that point with more sign languages. >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> On Jul 29, 2012, at 2:10 PM, "MARIA GALEA" <[log in to unmask]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Once again thank you Charles and Val for your feedback! >>>>> >>>>> I understand that the symbol frequency is a good way to find out >>>>> symbols >>>>> used to write a specific language - and it can be done - it's a >>>>> wonderful >>>>> tool in Puddle (thank you Steve!) and I have used it very recently to >>>>> analyze the Maltese Sign Language alphabet. However it's not the >>>>> intention >>>>> of the work to figure out other languages alphabets etc. What I need >>>>> to >>>>> know is whether this work has been carried out by other researchers >> or >>>>> teachers. >>>>> >>>>> I am fully aware (as i have taught SignWriting this way in the past >>>>> also) >>>>> that the ISWA 2010 can be used as it is to write any sign language - >>>>> and >>>>> so it's natural that the process of identifying the alphabet of a >>>>> language >>>>> may be bypassed. That is, you can still teach the writing of a >>>>> specific >>>>> language WITHOUT having yet discovered the alphabet, because ALL >>>>> symbols >>>>> of any alphabet are there and ready in the ISWA 2010. >>>>> >>>>> However just to summarize one small finding from my work - for >>>>> Maltese >>>>> Sign Language, 268 base symbols are used from the ISWA's 652. On >>>>> further >>>>> analysis the number may be reduced to 248 symbol. >>>>> >>>>> So Maltese Sign Language has an alphabet of 248 symbols - now once >>>>> this >>>>> work is completed - future manuals for the writing of Maltese >> sign >>>>> language need not cover the 403 base symbols that are NOT used, are >>>>> NOT >>>>> part of this specific language. See the point I'm after? There may be >>>>> benefits from having the alphabet set. >>>>> >>>>> This is one very thin slice of the work, there is a long way to go... >>>>> >>>>> maria >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting List >>>>>> July 28, 2012 >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Maria and Charles - >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, Charles is correct. Using the Symbol Frequency feature in >>>>>> SignPuddle >>>>>> Online is an excellent way to find all of the symbols used to write >>>>>> the >>>>>> signs in that specific database. For example, imagine you are >>>>>> searching >>>>>> for all of the handshapes used in American Sign Language. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Go to the ASL SignPuddle >> dictionary: >>>>>> >>>>>> ASL SignPuddle Dictionary >>>>>> http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=4 >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Click on Symbol Frequency. >>>>>> 3. Click on the Hands category. >>>>>> 4. Click on the SymbolGroup you want. >>>>>> 5. Notice in that group, which symbols have numbers under them, and >>>>>> which >>>>>> ones are grey? >>>>>> 6. The grey symbols are symbols not used in writing ASL signs in the >>>>>> ASL >>>>>> dictionary puddle. >>>>>> 7. The numbers under the symbols shows how many times that symbol >>>>>> was >>>>>> used >>>>>> to write signs in this database� >>>>>> >>>>>> See attached - >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >> ------- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 27, 2012, at 10:38 PM, Charles Butler wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The fastest way to do that is to look at "symbol frequency" in any >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the SignPuddles. This would give you the current research on the >>>>>>> minimal >>>>>>> pairs of a language. For example, one of the earlier publications >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> LIBRAS had determined a certain number of handshapes (around 96), >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> people began putting in the variants from Sao Paulo, Rio de >>>>>>> Janeiro, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> Rio Grande de Sul and the number expanded. Each day we've gotten a >>>>>>> few >>>>>>> more handshapes. When I was there in 2000, there were two >>>>>>> handshapes, >>>>>>> for example, using the ring finger and the thumb in contact, >>>>>>> "droga" >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> "noiva", which >> depend on where the thumb is placed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Charles Butler >>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> 240-764-5748 >>>>>>> Clear writing moves business forward. >>>>>>> From: MARIA GALEA <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 11:34 PM >>>>>>> Subject: An alphabet for a specific sign language from the ISWA >>>>>>> 2010 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Me again with one more question.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Has anyone out >> there studied the alphabet of his/her sign language- >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> is has anyone derived a smaller amount of symbols from the ISWA >>>>>>> 2010, >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> the significant symbols (an alphabet) for writing a specific >>>>>>> language >>>>>>> e.g. >>>>>>> ASL, BSL, Norwegian Sign Language, German sign language etc? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you know of any such work could you direct me to it please. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have carried it out would love to include and refer to your >>>>>>> work >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> my dissertation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Once again I truly appreciate ANY feedback whatsoever, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Maria >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >> ----- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Val ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Valerie Sutton >>>>>> SignWriting List moderator >>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>> >>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>>> >>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting >>>>>> Read & Write Sign Languages >>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org >>>>>> >>>>>> SignPuddle Online >>>>>> Write SignWriting in the Clouds! >>>>>> Documents, Dictionaries, SignMail >>>>>> http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting Wiki >>>>>> Wiki-style Articles in Sign Languages >>>>>> http://www.signbank.org/wiki >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting List >>>>>> Technical Support: Ask questions... >>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/swlist >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting Literature Project >>>>>> Writing Literature in Sign Languages >>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org/literature >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting Encyclopedia Projects >>>>>> Writing Encyclopedias in Sign Languages >>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org/encyclopedia >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting Sponsors Forum >>>>>> Help Educational Non-Profit Organization >>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org/forums/sponsors >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting Shop >>>>>> Books, DVDs, Lessons, Services >>>>>> http://www.SignWriting.org/shop >>>>>> >>>>>> Deaf Action Committee For SignWriting >>>>>> Center For Sutton Movement Writing >>>>>> a US educational nonprofit organization >>>>>> PO Box 517, La Jolla, CA, 92038, USA >>>>>> Tel: 858-456-0098 Skype: valeriesutton >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting on Twitter >>>>>> http://twitter.com/signwriting >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting on YouTube >>>>>> http://youtube.com/signwriting >>>>>> >>>>>> SignWriting on Facebook >>>>>> http://facebook.com/SignWriting >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Claudia S. Bianchini >> PhD Student @ Univ. Paris8 + CNRS-UMR7023-SFL >> PhD Student @ Univ. Studi di Perugia + CNR-ISTC-SLDS >> [log in to unmask]