 |
 |
Thank you for your response Charles - helps me understand better the role and work carried out by an editor. If you are checking and consulting about your choices - then they are NOT just subjective choices, I think they are well-informed choices. Also the 'flagging' entries is a very good idea. Flagging 'experiment' 'practice' etc etc. However the 9 variants of spelling the same sign in ASL provide interesting data about the evolution of an orthography - that's my point. It would be a shame not to keep record of it. (Imagine very old texts of written English..nowadays these texts are ground for research and shed light on how written orthography English evolved). > Dear Maria, > > Right now we are working on a Wikipedia, and I use the ASL Puddle to > compare entries. When I see a difference in a sign, I post that sign for > discussion to ensure that what I write or read is actually accurate and > the clearest spelling. Sometimes there are nine different entries for a > given gloss, and I have to choose the one that to me is most accurate. > Granted, that is entirely subjective, which your linguists may be > disgruntled at, but if, over time, a body of literature grows in > Wikipedia, more and more users will be using familiar writings that have > become the "default" user-most-friendly writings. > > If one sign were written expressive, and another receptive, they are the > same sign, they are reverses of each other, but if a sign is written that > shows my right hand doing something and using a left arrow to show its > movement, that is wrong on its face, factually wrong, not simply > stylistically variant. You can't write an EEE sound with an AY, it can't > be read. A movement up is not a movement out. > > Those are the kinds of edits that I have been looking at in LIBRAS. The > published LIBRAS dictionary has descriptions as well as pictures, and if > the arrows and palm facings don't match the description or the video, then > the video and the description win. I'm going through the published > dictionary, no more than 4 or 5 signs at a time, to put into the > SignPuddle the most accurate transcription I can. In working with the > editors of that published dictionary, they knew that there were a number > of errors that would require a teacher certified in the system to note and > correct before they put them on line. That's what I am doing, and if I am > confused, a take the time to check with three or four native users of > LIBRAS before I even put it in the SignPuddle. > > I don't remove things out of any dictionary without consulting the > writers, but if something seems to be an "experiment" I am going to flag > them as "experiment" so I can leave them alone, particularly if I don't > know the source, don't have any kind of definition, and they look like > scribbles. > > The SignPuddle is an amazing resource, and I don't want to see it less > accessible, but there must be a way to separate out a "real" sign that has > been vetted and compared to one which is just a "stab in the dark". My way > is to quote the source, to put my name on it so that people can contact > me, and try to put a clear definition of the sign, which sometimes fails > to completely convey a translation. > > i expect the same courtesy from others, don't put something in the > SignPuddle as an "experiment" without stating so, and be willing to put > your name on it. Think of it as an exercise board, if you must, but I'm a > teacher, and part of my job is pointing out things that are "errors" not > simply "variations." > > Charles Butler > [log in to unmask] > 240-764-5748 > Clear writing moves business forward. > > > ________________________________ > From: MARIA GALEA <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: signpuddle entry disappeared? > > Wow, what has happened here is really interesting, and it's something > that's been on my mind for a long time. > > For starters this is another clear indicatin that signwriting is becoming > widespread. > > In the SLLING list there was a discussion about HamNoSys and SignWriting - > and sign linguists were criticizing SignPuddle Dictionaries for not being > traditional 'dictionaries' in the linguistic sense (1 lexeme: 1 entry)- > and they are right - but this does not mean that SignPuddles are not a > rich resource in themselves. They store written sign language entries not > just by linguists but by common folk, and this makes all entries in > SignPuddle an invaluable resource - since for a writing system to be truly > a writing system it needs to be accepted, and written by a community of > language users. If SignPuddle was a linguistic database, it would lose its > uniqueness. What makes SignPuddle so strong - paradoxically is what > linguists criticize as weak - the way data is entered into Puddle in such > a non-academic way : i see this a major strength :) > > I see the public SignPuddles as editing tools for anyone using SignWriting > who wishes to write and store SignWritten entries in a particular > language. > > However my question now: are the public SignPuddles truly public? To have > an editor in a public SignPuddle 'respelling' and deleting entries to me > indicates that they are not very public. It might be a good time to > re-think what the aims and purposes of Public SignPuddles are. I can > understand that an editor would have to remove 'mistakes' etc..but the > mistakes are his/her interpretation of mistakes - at this early stage the > development of a writing system..mistakes may very well NOT be mistakes, > just different ways of writing the same thing..sometimes very different > ways but still the variance of writing would provide data which is > valuable for anyone studying the evolution of a writing system such as > SignWriting. > > Maybe what could be done is that the public SignPuddles remain or become > truly public, so that all entries are allowed to stay there..BUT then of > course I understand that the actual editors (with their different reasons > and targets for using SignWriting) cannot use these the Public SignPuddles > as they are, but they would take whatever they wish from the public > SignPuddles to their semi-private puddle (that can be viewed but not > edited). > > Hope this makes sense. > Maria > > > > >> SignWriting List >> September 27, 2012 >> >> Hello Stefan and everyone! >> Thank you for your message below. I have pasted a Google translation in > English below� >> >> These SignPuddles are growing! >> >> Maybe we need separate SignPuddle files for some countries and their > sign >> languages, so that different purposes can be supported within the same > sign language? >> >> Let's think about what would be best later� Maybe the DELEGS related > SignPuddle needs to be separate from the general public's German Sign > Language SignPuddle, that would be for beginners to try to learn to > write >> and so forth, and both SignPuddles would be accessible for reading, but > the DELEGS related SignPuddle would not be open to the general public > for >> writing? Just a thought... >> >> Thank you everyone, for your remarkable work� It is so exciting to see > all >> that is being accomplished... >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ------- >> >> English translation of Stefan's message: >> >> Hello Steve, Valerie, Charles and Oscar, >> >> There is a simple reason why the characters are gone. I'm >> the responsible editor of the German SignPuddles and have these entries > tonight deleted! >> >> At least times already great that we can now talk about it. Often I > delete that is misspelled or twice or three times >> Entries made by beginners, without ever a response to >> . experience >> >> Often, it is also different ;-) >> >> ... I get emails where someone points out that he also >> Want to learn to write SignWriting. This writer then asks for >> Feedback, help, support on the first write attempt. >> >> What is new is that our German SignPuddle a really great use >> in Delegs project experienced. >> >> With the fantastic Delegseditor we can in a few minutes >> Creating training materials for teaching German. >> >> http://www.delegs.com/DelegsPage/ >> >> >> >> It does not matter if you LBG - or create documents DGS >> want to be used by the students then to German or >> Single sign or want to learn German Sign Language. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8DbLcif3dnA >> >> >> >> >> Overall, such a dictionary then makes more sense if a certain standard / > Quality assurance is maintained. >> >> I try through tireless efforts on for many, many years >> . reach Meanwhile, I have written far more than 35000 gestures and > Wheelbarrow full of gestures created written documents for the > classroom. >> ;-) >> >> I want to avoid so that the number of additional search terms >> Variations mentioned, the creation of a rapid >> SignWriting documents difficult for my third graders. >> >> The characters that I deleted today night were sometimes wrong >> written, not to exploit some within the German language. >> >> So it makes sense that you might explain Oscar under which >> You bring in your sign Geichtspunkt entries in the German SignPuddle. >> >> Take for example the gesture with ID id00008 - >> >> You can find this gesture under the search word "no" - >> Mh - and why not, you might say. >> >> If you question a movement parallel to the execution of the hands is > Floor display outside with appropriate hand shape - and if you >> Such entries are not exactly the same time for text production but > require other purposes, it makes sense to the search word entry a > unusual characteristic letters preceded eg "Xidnicht" >> Then would the gesture other in this form with my students and >> Users to sign written documents do not show up when they are in the > Keyword line write "not" the word. >> >> Maybe for your project even the "Puddle staff" would be ideal. So for a > chance purely private / local database >> together to support your purpose. >> >> 'm Curious what exactly you have chosen as a research object. >> >> I just looked at SignPuddle and found that under >> id numbers were reinstated a few gestures. >> >> I lack the time in each case to make the correction work. >> At the same time I want to make as a responsible editor that >> as many (smile) entries are displayed correctly. >> >> This naturally leads to a conflict ... but as I said, maybe I >> I still do not understand exactly what is involved in your work ... >> >> >> Until then, all the best >> >> Greetings Stefan W�hrmann >> >> --------- >> On Sep 27, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Stefan W�hrmann wrote: >> >>> Hallo Steve, Valerie, Charles und Oscar, >>> Es gibt einen einfachen Grund, warum die Zeichen verschwunden sind. Ich > bin >>> der verantwortliche Editor des deutschen SignPuddles und habe diese > Eintr�ge >>> heute Nacht gel�scht! >>> Zumindest ist ja schon mal toll, dass wir nun dar�ber reden k�nne. Oft > l�sche ich n�mlich falsch geschriebene oder doppelt und dreifach > vorgenommene Eintr�ge von Anf�ngern, ohne jemals wieder eine Reaktion > zu >>> erleben. >>> H�ufig ist es aber auch anders ;-) >>> ... dann erhalte ich emails, in denen jemand darauf hinweist, dass er >>> auch >>> Geb�rdenSchrift schreiben lernen m�chte. Dieser Schreiber bittet dann > um >>> R�ckmeldung, Hilfe, Unterst�tzung bei den ersten Schreibversuchen. Neu > ist nun, dass unser deutsches SignPuddle eine ganz wunderbare > Verwendung >>> im Delegs-Projekt erlebt. >>> Mit dem Delegseditor k�nnen wir in wenigen Minuten fantastische > Schulungsunterlagen f�r den Deutschunterricht erstellen. >>> http://www.delegs.com/DelegsPage/ >>> Dabei spielt es keine Rolle, ob man LBG - oder DGS Dokumente erstellen > m�chte, die von den Sch�lern dann genutzt werden, um Deutsch oder > Einzelgeb�rden oder Deutsche Geb�rdensprache lernen zu wollen. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8DbLcif3dnA > Insgesamt macht so ein W�rterbuch dann mehr Sinn, wenn ein gewisser > Standard >>> /Qualit�tssicherung eingehalten wird. >>> Das versuche ich durch unerm�dlichen Einsatz seit vielen, vielen Jahren > zu >>> erreichen. Inzwischen habe ich weit mehr als 35000 Geb�rden geschrieben > und >>> Schubkarren voll von Geb�rdenSchriftdokumenten f�r den Unterricht > erstellt. >>> ;-) >>> Ich m�chte also verhindern, dass die Suchworte etliche zus�tzliche > Variationen aufz�hlen, die ein z�giges Erstellen von >>> Geb�rdenSchriftdokumenten auch f�r meine Drittkl�ssler erschweren. Die > Zeichen, die ich heute Nacht gel�scht habe, waren zum Teil falsch > geschrieben, zum Teil im Rahmen des Deutschunterrichts nicht zu > verwerten. >>> Es macht also Sinn, dass Sie Oscar vielleicht darlegen, unter welchem > Geichtspunkt Sie Ihre Geb�rdeneintr�ge im Deutschen SignPuddle > einbringen. >>> Nehmen wir beispielsweise die Geb�rde mit der ID id00008 - >>> Sie finden diese Geb�rde unter dem Suchwort "nicht" - >>> Mh - warum auch nicht, k�nnte man meinen. >>> Wenn es Ihnen darum geht eine Bewegungsausf�hrung der H�nde parallel > zum >>> Boden nach au�en mit entsprechender Handform darzustellen - und wenn > Sie >>> gleichzeitig exakt solche Eintr�ge nicht f�r Textproduktion sondern f�r > andere Zwecke ben�tigen, macht es Sinn, dem Suchworteintrag eine > au�ergew�hnliche Kennbuchstabenfolge voranzustellen z.B. "xidnicht" > Dann w�rde diese Geb�rde in dieser Form bei meinen Sch�lern und anderen > Nutzern f�r Geb�rdenSchriftdokumente nicht auftauchen, wenn sie in der > Suchwortzeile das Wort "nicht" schreiben. >>> M�glicherweise w�re f�r Ihr Projekt sogar das "Personal Puddle" ideal. > Damit >>> erhalten Sie die Chance eine rein private/lokale Datenbank >>> zusammenzustellen, um Ihre Zwecke zu unterst�tzen. >>> Bin neugierig, was genau Sie als Forschungsgegenstand gew�hlt haben. > Gerade habe ich im SignPuddle nachgeschaut und festgestellt, dass unter > id-nummern wieder ein paar Geb�rden eingestellt wurden. >>> Mir fehlt die Zeit in jedem Einzelfall die Korrekturarbeit zu leisten. > Gleichzeitig m�chte ich als verantwortlicher Editor sicherstellen, dass > m�glichst viele (smile) Eintr�ge korrekt dargestellt sind. >>> Das f�hrt nat�rlich zu einem Konflikt,... aber wie gesagt, vielleicht > habe >>> ich noch nicht genau verstanden, worum es bei Ihrer Arbeit geht ... Bis > dahin alles Gute >>> Gr��e Stefan W�hrmann >>> -----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht----- >>> Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Oscar Koller > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. September 2012 16:28 >>> An: [log in to unmask] >>> Betreff: Re: signpuddle entry disappeared? >>> Hey Steve, and all the list, >>> thanks for your message. >>> The signmaker: >>> http://signbank.org/swis/signmaker.php it seems it is not part of your > swis-server that you provide on github, but on above mentioned website > I >>> see, that it is GPL3 licensed. Can I get it somehow? if there is the > need for a little coding and adjusting to our system, that is no > problem. >>> When doing our annotations in public signpuddle (annotating our glosses > to signwriting), we need a way to link back the signpuddle entries to > our video database. we would use ids to give that information. probably > that was the reason, why the entries got removed. We denoted the id in > the "text" field. now we shifted to adding the id to the source field. > then it is not displayed too big and hopefully doesn't annoy anybody. > What do you think? Is that ok? >>> Thanks, >>> Oscar. >>> Am 27.09.2012 15:45, schrieb Steve Slevinski: >>>> Greetings Oscar Koller, >>>> It looks like your entries were deleted by an editor. I do not know > why. This shouldn't have happened. It was very inconsiderate. Please > let me know if it happens again. >>>> If you send me the export, I can add back the deleted entries. In the > German dictionary, writing with heads is the current writing style of > Stefan W�hrmann. Question for Stefan, should we split into > two >>>> German puddles? When dealing with spelling examples, dictionary >>>> lookup, >>>> and general use: I can see the benefit of having the body of work > based >>>> on particular rules of spelling. >>>> No free ways to edit SignWriting on a local machine. Work in > progress. >>>> 2013 should be an amazing year for SignWriting editors. I hope we can > maintain compatibility with SignPuddle Online. It is a great example > of >>>> great writers from all over the world. >>>> Valerie's non-profit does offer private puddles where you can set the > security for who can view, who can add, and who can edit. There is > also >>>> the PersonalPuddle, a client side version of SignPuddle Online for Mac > or Windows. Easy to install on Linux too. The import / export is for > entire puddles or single entries. These services are available for a > fee or private agreement. >>>> Regards, >>>> -Steve >> >>