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Hi Charles, Valerie... please let me explain again – I am not discussing different signs. I am not discussing that it is possible to bent the fingers just a little bit or extremely. I would like to discuss the possibility to write the bent index as a bent sqare finger or as a half –circle curve. See the sign below. Looking at the left or right hand there should not be any difference – well perhaps except for the “feeling” – smile If you bent your fingers – you can write this as bent square fingers. (We find this for handshapes with one, two or three fingers) We do not find this for 4 or 5 fingers – Why? Well the fingers bent the same way but the design of that given handshape shows smooth lines instead of “bent square fingers” Is this because of a design – problem with old software or is there an idea behind this concept. I fully agree with your last statement “ "beautiful" artwork must make sure that you don't lose articulation. “ That is the reason that I ask for your opinion smile! Hi Valerie – what do you think ? All best Stefan _____ Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Februar 2013 23:12 An: [log in to unmask] Betreff: Re: discussion: design of bent fingers For me there is an essential difference between a bent finger and a smoothed finger when you miss the point that two joints are bent, like the difference between "depend" where the joints smoothly go into a curve, and "friend" where they clearly link as bent square fingers. <http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=AS10a11S10a19S206 00M24x20S10a11n4xn6S10a19n23xn6S20600n11xn20&pad=10&name=McDonald-%27s> (McDonald's two CURVES) or <http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?ksw=M64x23S10a113xn3S1 0a19n30xn3S2660634x3S26612n64x3S218005xn15S21800n22xn15S2fb00n8xn24> (etc.) and something with clearly the first and second joints clearly squared. <http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/glyphogram.php?text=AS10611S20500S36d 00S22f03S10612S10616S20800S2f900M57x44S36d00n21xn37S2050023xn43S1061134xn43S 22f0316xn22S10616n15x2S106123x12S2f900n6x39S20800n5x26&pad=10&name=Mexican> This is the sign for Mexican from a sarape (a blanket used as a wrap). It would not be correct to make the sign without an actual hooked finger as a "minimal pair", so, for me, "beautiful" artwork must make sure that you don't lose articulation. Charles Butler [log in to unmask] 240-764-5748 Clear writing moves business forward. --- On Wed, 2/13/13, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> Subject: discussion: design of bent fingers To: [log in to unmask] Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2013, 4:58 PM Hi Valerie and sw-friends, I would like to ask for your comments about the following issue. Within our delegs-projekt a group of specialized design-students have a second look at the various SW-symbols. From their point of view there are options to “improve” the design of some symbols in order to make the whole SW-symbol-font look more “modern” or “nice” While preparing some studies of the ongoing process they showed up with the question whether the bent index can be written with smooth curves as well showing the index finger bent as you designed it as a finger with sharp edges. I played around with the signmaker to create a little demo of what I am talking about. ;-)) Interesting question – so I looked carefully at the Symbolset and discovered that the “claw hand” is designed exactly this way (rounded lines for the fingers) On the other hand the hands with only one, two or at least three fingers show this other design with sharp 90° angles. Can you tell us: Is this a matter of history? Coming from the old “DOS-SW-Software – we could not write nice circles either. You know this “old symbol” just indicating that you are supposed to see a circle-movement shown as some dots in a circle. What about this difference between a clawhand with curves or the same hand written with edges? Is there any meaningful difference in the background that you would want us to know? Or is this a matter of artwork? ... or something else? Would it be any difference if we would write all these bent fingers with soft rounded lines? Thank you very much for your attention. All best Stefan