Print

Print


SignWriting List
March 29, 2013

Hi Stefan and everyone -

Yes, these discussions are a lot of fun and are very useful too, because it shows that the SignWriting system can write the very detailed version, or the more simplified version - and writers can choose the style of writing they prefer because all choices are available to them -

That was my goal - feels good to see it in practice ….

I like your cartoon, Stefan - the person is performing it one way, but thinking in the simplified writing - very good!!





Val ;-)

------


On Mar 29, 2013, at 2:19 PM, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Big smile –
>  
> Ha he is performing the sign exactly as I thought –  almost hitting the back of the right hand index hinged on the left palm – left lower arm almost horizontally oriented - this is amazing. On the other hand looking at thousands of signing variations all kinds of I seem to develop some kind of feeling what would become kind of adaptation to relaxed signing within context instead of clear and distinct “detailed signing”
>  
> It is just for fun and to spend some thoughts about the ability of signwriting to show minimal changes very clearly.
>  
> ... I feel happy that my first hypothesis was confirmed.
>  
>  
> If it comes down to write an easy to understand spelling ... So you have to make compromises. And of course there are several options. ;-))
>  
> We do have a symbol for this hand shape index hinged – but it is no so intuitive compared to the index- hand – especially if we write it seen from top down.
>  
> So in the end – for the sake of an easy to perform handwriting the introduced reader should be happy with the spelling Adam suggested before.
>  
>  
> 
>  
>  
> I loved to discuss your spelling – thanks for your contribution.
>  
> L.I.F.E. ... greetings to Tini
>  
> Stefan
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Im Auftrag von Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway
> Gesendet: Freitag, 29. März 2013 20:48
> An: [log in to unmask]
> Betreff: Re: Erika's SignWriting..
>  
> OK, took the chance, even though I'm supposed to be doing something else on a tight deadline ;)
> Stefan you're right: I see it performed both ways! 
> For example, to see if performed like Stefan says, at 1:04 in the following video (this isn't from my data, this is some publicly circulated video someone else took and posted to you tube):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSpc3ZgP1wo
> So now I need to figure out how to write it with the back of the right hand resting in the left palm with the index finger sticking up!
>  
> 
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Stefan, when I get the time I will look in my video data corpus to see if I can find instances of signers performing the sign as you suggest they might. (love the images you included!!!)
>  
> 
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi Maria, Erika,Adam, Valerie...
>  
> The reason that I feel uncomfortable with the spelling of this sign is just as Erika explains:
>  
> “Maybe it's because the wrist of the right hand has to flex so much to allow  the hand to rest in the palm of the left? “
>  
> That`s it and it is independent of DGS – smile.
>  
>  
> Reading your sign my brain suggests to experiment with one of these variations:
>  
> Left hand indicating the ground, right hand indicating the tower (Dharahara)   -
>  
> 
>  
> (I would feel much more comfortable with the left hand palm down ( but that is not the point. It is not up to me to discuss signs but only to discuss spelling – I know smile!)
> 
> 
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Well if you write a “rest” one hand upon another I expect that I can perform that. In this case you cannot unless you rest the lower arm on the palm of the left hand holding the right hand at 90°.
> (That hurts)
>  
> 
>  
>  
> What we do in these cases is what Adam explained: We simply accept and tell our brain to interpret this spelling if it shows up another time to be interpreted as what you see on Erikas foto.
>  
> I myself love to discuss spelling and to ask myself wether this or that spelling should be chosen.
>  
> Sometimes I have my doubts immediately – for example when reading the first attempt of Claudia to write Paris – wow next message she shows up to change handorientation – well done!! Another example is the spelling of Sao Paulo palm facing the signer...
>  
> 
>  
> In this case of Kathmandu – Adam is right – it hurts if I try to sign it with this extreme bend  and I would be eager to videotape 10 signers in Kathmandu – how many of them would rest the back of the right hand on the palm of the left hand – but just bending the index up – or something like this in between the two spellings ;-)
>  
> So to anwer your question Maria – in my first contact with Erikas spelling  I wanted the right hand with index straight upward... and that is impossible.
>  
> Thanks Maria for your question.
>  
>  
> Stefan
>  
>  
>  
> Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Im Auftrag von Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway
> Gesendet: Freitag, 29. März 2013 18:25
> An: [log in to unmask]
> Betreff: Re: Erika's SignWriting..
>  
> Stefan - would that have helped?
> Happy Easter to you too Maria! I was actually just eating a Cadbury Cream Egg while reading your message...
>  
> 
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 1:13 PM, MARIA GALEA <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Yes that could be it..perhaps if the B-Hand hand is written diagonally it
> might read more 'smoothly'? see attached.
> 
> oh and before I go a BIG HAPPY EASTER Erika and EVERYONE else on the
> List..enjoy your Easter Eggs and naturally your loved ones.
> maria
> 
> 
> 
> > Maybe it's because the wrist of the right hand has to flex so much to
> > allow
> > the hand to rest in the palm of the left? Maybe that extreme bend is not
> > as
> > phonologically common in, say, DGS?
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 12:51 PM, MARIA GALEA
> > <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> >
> >> Stefan,
> >> I could read Erika's writing perfectly, without the photo. I don't
> >> understand why you claimed that the SignWriting couldn't be performed.
> >> Maria
> >>
> >>
> >> > Here's a photo of the sign. How would you suggest I write it. Scribing
> >> has
> >> > never been my strong suit :)
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Stefan W�hrmann <
> >> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>  Hi Erika, ****
> >> >>
> >> >> ** **
> >> >>
> >> >> well I cannot perform that ;-(  although I have an idea what you want
> >> to
> >> >> show � but right hand up there is the horizontal line of hand and
> >> lower
> >> >> arm  - nothing that can be rest on the left palm ???****
> >> >>
> >> >> ** **
> >> >>
> >> >> Stefan****
> >> >>
> >> >> ** **
> >> >>  ------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> *Von:* SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:
> >> >> [log in to unmask]] *Im Auftrag von *Erika
> >> >> Hoffmann-Dilloway
> >> >> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 28. M�rz 2013 18:07
> >> >>
> >> >> *An:* [log in to unmask]
> >> >> *Betreff:* Re: Signs for Cities and States - can you write the name
> >> of
> >> >> YOUR city and post to the List?
> >> >> ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ** **
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes, the right hand comes to rest on top of the palm of the left.
> >> Maybe
> >> >> I
> >> >> should just have shown them already in contact?****
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Stefan W�hrmann <
> >> >> [log in to unmask]> wrote:****
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi Erika, ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> can you explain Kathmandu: ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> left flat hand palm up fingers to the right ( no problem)****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> right hand Index � Hand � palm facing the signer  moving down  - mh
> >> �
> >> >>  how to get the touch between the two hands � right hand on top of
> >> the
> >> >> left
> >> >> hand ?? ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> Stefan ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>  ------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> *Von:* SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:
> >> >> [log in to unmask]] *Im Auftrag von *Erika
> >> >> Hoffmann-Dilloway
> >> >> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 28. M�rz 2013 17:18****
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> *An:* [log in to unmask]
> >> >> *Betreff:* Re: Signs for Cities and States - can you write the name
> >> of
> >> >> YOUR city and post to the List?****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't know ASL, so I don't know a sign for Detroit, Ann Arbor, or
> >> >> Oberlin (my US places).****
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> So I'm posting the sign for Kathmandu, the city where I learned to
> >> sign!
> >> >> *
> >> >> ***
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Adam Frost <[log in to unmask]>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> ****
> >> >>
> >> >> I am a West Coaster, and I must admit that people get East Coast city
> >> >> signs mixed up along with our own city signs. But this is how I
> >> >> personally
> >> >> sign the 4 commonly confused "B" cities, since I am very picky and
> >> have
> >> >> been known to correct people at times. ;-) It seems to match what you
> >> >> sign,
> >> >> Kim.****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> ****
> >> >>
> >> >> Boston, Massachusetts****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> ****
> >> >>
> >> >> Baltimore, Massachusetts****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> ****
> >> >>
> >> >> Berkeley, California****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> ****
> >> >>
> >> >> Burbank, California****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> Adam****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mar 28, 2013, at 8:23 AM, Kimberley Shaw wrote:****
> >> >>
> >> >> ** **
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi everyone:
> >> >> those of us in Boston, Massachusetts sign it thus:
> >> >> ****
> >> >>  ------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  and refer to Berkeley, CA thus:
> >> >>
> >> >> But some of my signing friends tell me that when you're on the West
> >> >> Coast,
> >> >> it's the other way around!
> >> >> Best,
> >> >> Kim from Boston****
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Valerie Sutton
> >> <[log in to unmask]>
> >> >> wrote:****
> >> >>
> >> >> SignWriting List****
> >> >>
> >> >> March 28, 2013****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> NAMES OF CITIES and STATES Around the World****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> Thank you, Ingvild, Charles and Stefan for your signs!****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> I would suggest that you add your signs to the International Sign
> >> >> Dictionary online:****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> SignPuddle for International Signs Dictionary****
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=35****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> I just copied mine for La Jolla, California from the ASL Dictionary
> >> to
> >> >> the
> >> >> International Dictionary, and I hope you can do the same for your
> >> signs
> >> >> too�
> >> >> ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> And I hope more names of cities, states, countries and other
> >> >> international
> >> >> signs can be added too�****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> Here is what we have so far�and I really like all four spellings!
> >> Thanks
> >> >> to you all�****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> Val ;-)****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >> ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >>  ****
> >> >>
> >> >>   ****
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway
> >> >> Assistant Professor of Anthropology
> >> >> Oberlin College ****
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway
> >> >> Assistant Professor of Anthropology
> >> >> Oberlin College ****
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway
> >> > Assistant Professor of Anthropology
> >> > Oberlin College
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway
> > Assistant Professor of Anthropology
> > Oberlin College
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway
> Assistant Professor of Anthropology
> Oberlin College
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway
> Assistant Professor of Anthropology
> Oberlin College
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway
> Assistant Professor of Anthropology
> Oberlin College