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SignWriting List
October 10, 2013

Hello Jonathan!
This is very exciting indeed. If I understand this correctly, when people enter new signs in the dictionary in SignWriter Studio, they will be able to associate the sign with different Sign Lists…for example, the sign for CHAIR could be in the Sign Lists for FURNITURE and HOUSEHOLD. So each sign could belong to multiple Sign Lists. Then the user chooses the Sign List FURNITURE, and the sign for CHAIR will be listed there with other signs for furniture. Then the user can print the Sign List. Can the PDF automatically place a title at the top saying something like "Signs for Furniture in _______Sign Language" , with page numbers?

Can signs from SignPuddle be imported into the SignWriter Studio dictionary?

Val ;-)

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On Oct 10, 2013, at 7:29 AM, Jonathan Duncan <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi all,
    please feel free to give point of view and suggestions.

Hello André
    This is a revised list of functionality for making technical dictionaries for printout from the entries in the current SignWriter Studio Dictionary from our emails off the list.  We could call these technical dictionaries "Sign Lists" or "Glossaries" or "Topics".  Look forward to input from members on the list.

Features for first version
  • Create a new window to show the list of signs in for each "Sign List".
  • [log in to unmask]">
  • Click on Add Sign will bring up the Dictionary which can be searched, then the signs selected to be added to the current "Sign List".
  • Sign Lists automatically saved to Dictionary file.
  • Can select paper size.
  • Print Layout
    • [log in to unmask]">Two columns
    • Words (gloss) at the top of each entry in bold
    • SignWriting, with Illustration of what it is beside it.
    • Keep all entries together, not split across two pages.
    • Shrink SignWriting and Illustration if they don't fit the column width
    • Signs sorted by word (gloss)
    • Roman numeral page numbering
Possible future features
  • Screen paging. The complete list would not be loaded, at most 100 at a time to not overload the memory.
  • In the Dictionary add a place for full spoken language description.
  • Option to printout or not description
  • Option to printout secondary language also (bilingual option example English and French along with the sign)
  • Option to split output into several files. There may be a problem with PDF: with 10 signs per page we have 800 pages of ASL dictionary full of drawings and several pictures.  Low resolution sign images are required.  It may be problematic to load 800 pages in adobe to see 1 single word... Possibly split the dictionary in 5 or 24 documents.
  • Extra pages either make them or option to include pre-made pages in PDF.
    • The user should be able to create a cover page with text of several lines, and image, several line.
    • Second page, the editor name, the date, copyright to Valerie and you and pointer to internet sites.
    • Several pages of introduction text prior to the dictionary itself.
  • Possible a table of content or pointers to jump to a chosen letter (table of content being undefined until the page count is completed).
  • Possibly the first word of each page in the top left corner to browse fast through a paper document.
  • Sort signs by Symbol

Let me know your thoughts and suggestions.

Thanks
Jonathan

On 10/4/2013 10:26 AM, André L wrote:
[log in to unmask]" type="cite">
Hello Duncan,
 
thank you for your interest in supporting dictionary generation with SignWriter Studio.  I like this software a lot.
 
This is my main interest in sign writing.  I whish to support access to rich vocabulary for interpreters, parents or hearing educator to improve the quality of the communication with deaf people.  The second aspect is to develop highly technical dictionaries for students and interpreters to avoid re-inventing custom signs all the time.
 
I am a software tester (13 years of experience).  Do you want to discuss specifications, test case suite...  The user guide could be a starting point...
 
It will be important to be able to exclude signs or words from such dictionary ( in LSQ sign puddle we have plenty of plural and feminin version of the same word and conjugated verbs).
 
 
André Lemyre
 

Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2013 09:01:52 -0600
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Creating a dictionnary
To: [log in to unmask]

Hi André,  
    Way back I wrote a program called ASL List that did exactly what you want but it was limited it only had so many signs.  So I decided to and SignWriting to it and then came about SignWriter Studio. 

Presently that feature isn't working but I will work on that next now that someone else is also interested!!! 

Jonathan

On 10/2/2013 7:09 PM, André L wrote:
[log in to unmask]">

 Hello Valerie,
I would like to know how to create a paper dictionary (like a book) by importing ALL LSQ signs from sign puddle.  I could show that to collegue students, interpreters and use it myself.
 
Also, can we develop a technical dictionary (like for a student electrician) that will also be part of the main dictionary?
Would there be a way to gather a pdf subset of the main dictionary that the student could share with several interpreters working with him-her?
 
André Lemyre

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 17:30:46 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sign puddle online does not translate existing words
To: [log in to unmask]

SignWriting List
October 2, 2013

Hello Andre, and Andre, Steve and Jonathan!

So ….we have some wonderful software that needs to be better coordinated - but both programs by themselves work well. Right now, Steve needs to complete the new SinPuddle 3 and get it uploaded, because it also contains new features that everyone wants, and it has taken longer than expected to complete the software…

Regarding creating your own dictionaries, there is not only SignWriter Studio, but also the PersonalPuddle, and Private Web Puddles, and you can also use SignPuddle Online and label your signs as yours in the Source and those signs could always be transferred to SignWriter Studio maybe? can one reverse the process? - ha! In time, all these programs will work well together I am sure…both Jonathan and Steve work for very little pay and are working hard to make the programs work well -

So for now, I would either use the workaround that Jonathan suggested, or edit the signs in SignText, not SignMaker… let me test this myself - I am sorry I have not done that yet -

SignBank would not work with this because it has not been updated for years but I want to update it in the future -

Val ;-)

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On Oct 2, 2013, at 5:20 PM, André L <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Hello Jonathan,
 
thank you for the work around.
I will try it this weekend.
I will try to contact Steve to assist me because I have over a hundred signs to process.
I have many more signs in draft in SignWriter studio.
 
Also, I tried sign bank 85 but I could never upload the Québec Sign language files I copied from Sign puddle, so I gave up.   I would have like to build a dictionnary.
 
 
André Lemyre

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 16:29:30 -0600
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sign puddle online does not translate existing words
To: [log in to unmask]

Hi Andre,
   When exporting from SignWriter Studio to Sign Puddle there is no way to directly to a SignMaker entry. This is a limitation of SignPuddle. I have run into this limitation myself personally trying to add and modify sign to the puddle from SignWriter Studio.  SignPuddle doesn't yet have adequate import/export or synching capabilities.   I have written to Steve about it but he hasn't been able to make it a priority yet.
If you just have a few signs then this is they way to do it.
  1. In SignWriter Studio when positioned on the sign, click Edit/Copy/Copy Sign to Sign Puddle or press Ctrl-Alt-C.  It shows the sign in SignPuddle in your browser.
  2. Click on the puddle you want to save to.
  3. In Terms type "temp"
  4. Click Add
  5. Click Copy Sign From SignText
  6. Click Copy Sign
  7. Click on SignPuddle you want to save to
  8. In Terms type in the term for the sign
  9. Click Add
  10. Click on Search by Words or Search by Signs
  11. In Terms and Titles type "temp"
  12. Click on temp
  13. Click Delete Entry
  14. Click Delete Entry


Otherwise you might ask Steve if you export to an SPML file if he can add them for you.

I hope his helps

Regards,
Jonathan

On 10/2/2013 11:41 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
[log in to unmask]">SignWriting List
October 2, 2013

Andre, Steve, Charles and Jonathan -

No worries everyone. Thank you for your messages. And thank you for bringing this issue up, which as far as I know, from my experience, is specific between the two programs: SignWriter Studio and SignPuddle. I noticed this issue myself a long time ago and did mention it once to Jonathan, but there is so much to do it got sidetracked. It seems that exporting signs from the SignWriter Studio dictionary end up as SignText in SignPuddle instead of dictionary entries…so the signs are not made with SignMaker, but instead with SignWriter Studio's dictionary, but they need to end up as the equivalent to signs made with SignMaker… not as SignText …so we need both Jonathan's and Steve's help with this one -

Thank you, Andre, by the way, for your documents - they are charming! And thank you for pointing this out to us -

Val ;-)

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On Oct 2, 2013, at 10:11 AM, Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

IF this does not work from a compatible program then the compatibility program of the major SignWriting programs need to all be made compatible. I know that this is a challenge, but making a new signwriting translator without a compatibility check seems a little futile. If the main database can't retrieve the words, then the point of Open Source is not being fulfilled. 

To do Open Source means that all output from a given input must be compatible to the central databank, in the case, SignBank, SignPuddle, and all of those others created. 

Is it not part of the spec of importing signs? Is there not a command to say "which of the following compatible programs are you using to import to SignPuddle?" "have you contact Steve Slevinski to ensure that the program will in fact import your signs in a form that is acceptable to the data retrieval function."

Else, it is a very large learning curve. 
 
Charles Butler
[log in to unmask]
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.


From: Stephen E Slevinski Jr <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: Sign puddle online does not translate existing words


On 10/2/13 11:37 AM, André L wrote:
Hello,
 
Many of the words I entered in sign puddle using sign studio are not displayed in the translate feature.
Only the words are displayed without sign.
However, with a seach on the same words, the sign is displayed.
Hi Andre,

The translate feature works with individual signs that were created in SignMaker. 

The translate feature does not work with sign texts that were created with SignText.

Looking at the "assis" entry:
http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/canvas.php?ui=1&sgn=47&sid=4400

    [log in to unmask]">

The sign is boxed and a lower font size.  This indicates it was created with SignText.  Under the "Source", you can see the "SignText data" links.  This sign will not work in the current translate.

Here is "assistant" in the same dictionary.

[log in to unmask]">

Notice that it is not boxed and a larger font size.  This indicates is was created with SignMaker.  Under the "Search.." links, you can see the "Sign data" links.  This sign will work in translate.


So that's the problem.  You say you created this with "sign studio".  Are you talking about Jonathan's SignWriter Studio?  Or did you use SignText?

The solution is to move the signs from the sign text area to individual signs.  I'm not sure the best way to do this.

How many entries are like this?

Regards,
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