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Hi Steve and the List,

Could I just point out an issue that has come up recently when investigating SignPuddles and using them as a tool to extract information about the writing system for different sign languages..

You see, some reviewers have been very critical about the symbol frequency count - not in itself naturally, but with the lack of information it provides about the inputters (writers), their expertise and even the lack of having an exact figure of how many people have written in a given Puddle. Without such information not much can be concluded from the results, since you would need exact figures of how many writers have inputted into a given Puddle, dates of when they inputted, and some information about their level of skill, whether they are native signers or otherwise.. i understand your point Charles, that the Puddles are there to be used 'naturally' by whoever (as this is the way with natural writing), however it would be a pity not to include such information (if it is possible) for the sake of future research.

Just to give an example, say you would like to investigate the writing system of the Spanish Literature Puddle (for instance you are investigating the symbols/glyphs used for Spanish sign language) - without information about the number of writers, whether they are native signers or hearing students, and dates of when the writing was created - there is not much you can conclude about the writing system of Spanish sign language (because if if it was written by one person this would be much more different than if it were written by say 15 people)...do you see my point?

I have no idea if such information can somehow be stored, as i have no expertise with programming at all; i can also see the problem with data-protection acts (but hey- what happened with the boom of social-networks such as Facebook!) but it would be great to somehow store such information for future research...

Thanks
maria


On 12 December 2013 12:38, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Valerie, Steve...

 

Well I haven´t got the time, the knowledge, the energy to work with more options as I do right now. I am happy that “find by word” with different options ...and find by symbol is possible,

For my work at school there is nothing more needed – as far as I can see now...

 

All best

 

Stefan

 

 

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. Dezember 2013 23:53
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: Design for SignPuddle 3: parts-of-speech and morphology of sign language

 

My only comment is that I hope all dictionary entries don't require a linguist to actually put them in or to find them. I have been excited about SignWriting because it has allowed me to write what I actually sign, not describe it in a spoken language for a third party. 

 

That will become an impossible burden to lexicographers. Creating a search engine that can handle a bunch of parameters is fine, but who is going to go through every single sign and assign them all possible entries? The burden becomes impossible, and is no longer useful to an actual user of SignWriting as a writing system, not a linguistic tool.  

 

Charles Butler
[log in to unmask]
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.

 

From: Rachel Channon <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: Design for SignPuddle 3: parts-of-speech and morphology of sign language

 

That diagram is interesting.  hmm.  A complete list of morphological characteristics might be hard – I don’t think it is as settled as parts of speech.

In my mind, morphology really translates to: some named characteristic of a group of signs or a group of morphemes.  Practically speaking, in most sign languages, a sign is almost the same thing as a morpheme – that is in most sign languages most simple signs are one morpheme.  (This is quite different from spoken languages where many word are made up of two or more morphemes as in disinterested which has at least 3 morphemes: dis + interest + ed.)   However, this isn’t always true.  For example, ASL has a negative incorporation element of the hand twisting/rotating (as in DON’T-KNOW, DON’T-WANT) that is at the morpheme level.   Compounds are usually two morphemes. Furthermore, under some theories, classifiers can be considered to be bundles of many morphemes – the handshape is one or more morpheme, the location another set, the action another set, orientation…etc etc. 

So there are really at least four elements of this information:  1) How many morphemes are there in a sign (usually 1, sometimes 2, sometimes  many, other choices less common). 2) are the morphemes simultaneous or sequential and 3) for each morpheme, what is its morpheme group, if any? and 4) is the sign as a whole in some morphological group? 

Examples:

DON’T-WANT: 2 simultaneous morphemes:  WANT + Negative incorporation

WOMAN: 2 sequential morphemes: GIRL + FINE.  The sign is a compound

J-B (job): 2 sequential morphemes: J + B.  Each element is fingerspelling; the entire sign is a fingerspelled loan sign.

MOTHER: 1 morpheme

BAKE-ER: 2 sequential morphemes BAKE + ER (person affix).  Some people might classify this as a compound, some might call it an affixed form

 

 

Given this complexity, it might make sense to set up

1) a simple set of choices that allow multiple choices, so that I could select for example classifier AND compound. An initial list:

 

Classifier, compound, fingerspelling – one handed, fingerspelling – two handed, fingerspelled loan sign, character sign, assimilated compound, compound, negative incorporation, clitic, affix, initialized sign, phrase, inflected verb, uninflected verb, locational verb, noun-verb pair, repeating or non-repeating signs, numbers, gestural, pantomimic, iconic. Classifiers are subdivided in many ways by different linguists, so some linguists might want to add to the list of classifiers – for example, classifiers for handling objects vs. motion vs. drawing-in-the-air and so on.

 

2) a second set of choices specifying number of morphemes that defaults to 1 and allows numeric write-ins plus the choices innumerable, uncertain, and many,

3) a fixed choice set for either simultaneous or sequential,

and 4) a free form area for additional information.

I hope that I haven’t forgotten something utterly obvious.

Rachel

 

 

 

From: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stephen E Slevinski Jr
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 11:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Design for SignPuddle 3: parts-of-speech and morphology of sign language

 

Hi SignWriting List,

This has been a great year, but I'm woeful behind on several project.  I appreciate all of the positive work people have been able to do with SignPuddle.  The long awaited work on SignPuddle 3 continues. Next year will be a break out year for written sign language across the globe.

https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Incubator:Test_wikis_of_sign_languages

I'm finalizing the database for SignPuddle 3.  I'm very impressed with MySQL Workbench and the diagramming tool in particular. (image below)

Database design
--------------
For individual entries, I have designed the parts-of-speech solution, but not the morphology solution yet.

For parts-of-speech, there is a small list of values for the most common choices.  noun, verb, adjective, adverb, sentence, other.  This list can be translated into other languages.

Additionally, each entry has a separate parts-of-speech text field, which can be used for a more accurate description or a value outside of the common list.

I was considering a similar strategy for morphology.  First, a new table with a static list of the most common and universal choices.  Second, a freeform text field for each entry for alternate descriptions and complex analysis.

Researching morphology, it appears there are several kinds of analysis, each with its own classifications and descriptions.  Is a single list too simplistic to be helpful?  I'd appreciate any discussion of the topic.

Morphology list: monosyllable, compound, ... ?

Thanks,
-Steve

PS - Here is part of the working diagram for the database.  I haven't added anything for morphology yet.
cid:<a href=[log in to unmask]">

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