I have tried to figure out how to sort out left from right hands in the sequence, and the best I can do is to treat ALL signs as right hand dominant and then follow the rotational patterns toward the center. The left hand follows in the same sequence as the right hand, but we need to research it as the SignPuddle treats one hand as having 96 rotations rather than being split in two to 2 hands of 48 orientations each. Sometimes a hand just does weird things in motion so that one needs all 96 rotations (and sometimes the in-between ones). It is a challenge and we are all learning as we go along. 

I have not tried to put an English and ASL translation of each sign in LIBRAS into the SignPuddle. 

I was working through all the examples as actually currently in the LIBRAS SignPuddle when I started, and used only those signs that could attest who put them in and had three different editors in Brazil going through the signs I chose to ensure that they were well formed and attested as there are many "experiments" in both the ASL and LIBRAS SignPuddles that are not fully vetted. 

I will try to load up more of my dictionaries as I am able, but I must confess I can't give the stuff away. Valerie has other sources of income, I have very little, and I cannot block out the time to work on the dictionary except very occasionally, without compensation. In Brazil, I was living on a flat sum and was there as a researcher, so I was paid for my work, however tiny. Back in the US I don't have that luxury. 
 
Charles Butler
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240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.


From: André L <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries

Hello,
sorting by the rotation of the hand may not be effective in LSQ because of directional signs. 
 
André Lemyre

 

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:05:50 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries
To: [log in to unmask]

Hi Charles,
    I watched your talk again today.  I realized that what I call "Sign Sequence" you call "Sign Spelling".  I guess it is "SignSpelling Sequence".  So I didn't understand that the first time.  So now after this more attentive listening to your talk, I see that you definitely are using SignSpelling Sequence for all your entries and that you are doing them manually the same way Val suggested in the SignSpelling Guidelines.  
    Am I correct in my understanding that which symbols come first in the sorted list is different from the way SignPuddle is sorting? 

Your sorting would be sorted by the
1. First by symbol in the sign sequence's basegroup of the first hand in the SignSpelling Sequence
2. What figure (See the individual chapters)?  I need more explanation about this one.
3. The for each basegroup sort by fill

4. In each fill sorting, sort by rotation ( but not distinguishing between right and left hands. 
I see you number both from 1 to 8 in instead of numbering them all from 1 to 16)





5. Location symbol. comes after hand symbol when comparing.
From first to last
No Body - hand to hand, head, body

5.1 Location sorting on hand contact order doesn't seem to be defined yet

5.2 Head location sorting




5.3 Body body
Indicate the location of the body, placing the graphic in the left lane, the middle lane, or
right lane. - Need this explained I'm not understanding.
Needs to have numbering for which comes first for body location

 


6 - What is contact? No order, any can come first.


7.7 - Finger bends (ie no order)?No order, any can come first.


8 - Movement? Vertical, then Horizontal, then Arc - up / down, up / abaxo + rotation, then up / down bow
after / below + arc rotation, face bow, face bow + rotation






Need to define which come first within the vertical, and which come first within the horizontal, etc.  Or just current default currently in ISWA2010
Need to define movement symbols in other planes, etc.
 

   
9 Timing.  Which comes first?



10 Faces and posture.
Not sure about this one, would like more explanation.


Also you need to output a dictionary that has,

hand
spelling
sign
Portuguese
ASL
english
Quote

Do you currently have any way of keeping all this information in Sign Puddle?
SignWriter Studio can do
spelling
sign-LIBRAS
Portuguese
English
Source

I was hoping to add a second SignLanguage to do a dictionary with two sign languages but I haven't programmed that yet.

I am still working on finalizing the output for the dictionary.  So I am looking for your input whether you use it or not.


Please fill me in where I am lacking and correct me where I am wrong.

Regards,

Jonathan

On 8/12/2014 4:47 PM, Jonathan Duncan wrote:
Hi Charles,
    I enjoyed your symposium “Ordering Signs in Dictionaries” http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0010.htmlgro
I was wondering if Steve and Val had been able to find you a solution.  Val mentioned that she thought that Steve would have an easy way for you to do your sorting.


I would like to implement a sorting algorithm for SignWriter Studio as I haven't implemented any yet and I am starting to produce a Honduran Sign Language dictionary. 


I understood how you are doing the ordering comparing hand shapes, comparing rotations, comparing facings, comparing facial areas, etc.  I like it very much.


A couple things I wanted to ask.

For your algorithm to work properly does the sign sequence of a sign need to be filled out?  I am getting the impression that your sorting could sort dictionaries without the sign sequence, is this assumption correct?  Or would it sort signs according to the symbols in sign sequence?  It doesn't seem to take into account the order of the symbols in the sign sequence, is this correct?

Also do you have another document comparing the other symbols like movement symbols, etc?  If so could you send it to me?


Thanks

--
email: [log in to unmask]
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Tel USA: (347)875-8442
Skype: yojoduncan

SignWriter Studio

--
email: [log in to unmask]
         [log in to unmask]
Cel Honduras: (504)3141-1171
Tel USA: (347)875-8442
Skype: yojoduncan

SignWriter Studio
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