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Adam and Stefan,

Adam is right on, very rarely will the same verb change a hand shape, though it may change a direction. Webster's English dictionary has the problem of related words being separated when they are strong verbs which change vowels or complete form "go, went, gone" or "am, are, is, was, were, been". Lots of words between entries. You can't find all the parts of a verb in English, or French, or Welsh, or Latin because of prefixes, affixes, infixes (in some African languages), so why should signed languages be any different. 

We will find challenges, but my point in making a dictionary driven by hand shape is to ensure one can look up a sign when one has no clue what the spoken language word or concept is. 
 
Charles Butler
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Clear writing moves business forward.


________________________________
 From: Adam Frost <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: AW: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries
 

Oh, I agree that a good strong dictionary should have the most common used directional verb like the relations between "you and me”. I guess I never said that directly in my email. However, if the dictionary is just a basic vocabulary dictionary, that is when I wouldn’t put them in. So I guess it is just a matter of what type of dictionary you are making as to whether or not the directional verbs would be placed in it.

Having said that, I still feel that saying that sorting should work so that all of the same types of directional verbs would be together isn’t realistic because there are more than one kind of directional verbs in a given sign language that work in different ways. Much like affixes in English aren’t always near each other in dictionaries for the same reason.

Some directional verbs are different by location, where others are different by movement. Then you have those that are different by handshapes. If your first sorting is based on location, then the directional verbs different by location will not be near each other. If your first sorting is based on handshapes, which is what I normally do, then those directional verbs different by handshapes will not be near each other. The directional verbs different by location and movement, however, would be closer to each other. In fact, they would probably be right next to each other. I hope that this makes sense.

Adam

On Aug 14, 2014, at 10:27 AM, Stefan Woehrmann <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi Adam, ... 
> 
> Of course I need directional verbs in my dictionary ...smile and you are
> right ..there is often not enough time and energry to care about too many
> options ..but at lease the "you and me" thing is worth it ...
> Writing so many phrases every day during my lessons it is so interesting and
> helpful for my students to understand this concept of "directional
> verbs"..So they have to have a concept in mind while browsing the different
> options that are already stored in the dictionary ..and hey what a triumph
> if a 12 year old deaf kid takes the job to add a missing option .."The
> father receives from his son a beautifl foto of a little owl."
> 
> All best 
> 
> Stefan 
> 
> 
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Adam Frost
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 14. August 2014 17:03
> An: [log in to unmask]
> Betreff: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries
> 
> I'm not sure I'd place directional verbs in a dictionary because it is
> almost impossible to get every possibility. I would probably just place the
> base verb and then something to signify that it can become a directional
> verb. 
> 
> As I think of it more, however, I am reminded of affixes in spoken languages
> (like pre-, un-, or -tion, and -ed). It is rare that they have all the
> possibilities of combined words, but the most common are usually placed in
> the dictionary. 
> 
> And thinking of ordering those words with affixes for spoken languages, they
> aren't always clumped together especially if the are suffixes (like -tion
> and -ed for English). 
> 
> So I'm not sure what you are meaning by sorting by rotation wouldn't be
> effective, but I get the feeling that you are expecting that they all be
> clumped together in the same area of a dictionary. That may happen in some
> cases, but it will never work for every case because similarities between
> directional verbs are not always the same thing (ie the beginning of the
> sorting sequence).
> 
> But maybe I have read your meaning completely wrong, so can you give us an
> example of what you are talking about for LSQ?
> 
> Adam
> 
>> On Aug 13, 2014, at 7:47 PM, André L <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> sorting by the rotation of the hand may not be effective in LSQ because of
> directional signs. 
>> 
>> André Lemyre
> 
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