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In the dictionary output I put in I did not sort by ASL for now, that was an input AFTER the ordering of the dictionary. 

I am using the Search feature in the SignPuddle and going through every LIBRAS sign I have access to and putting in a Spelling so that the computer can sort them. After that has happened and I go back and search by a hand shape, I can then pull into a separate file representative  spellings and reduce them to two or three minimal pairs. I don't use the entire spelling from one sign to the next, just what differentiates the next sign in the dictionary. So my current dictionary (the one used in the Symposium) does not have the full spell-out as the actual LIBRAS SignPuddle entry has. 

After putting in the LIBRAS signs I wanted, I then added an English column and an ASL column, realizing that between two spoken languages and two signed languages there may be some signs that seem lexically identical but have different usages. This will always be a work in progress. 

Your query about directional signs, Andre, would have signs coming one after another if one is using the same hand shape simply changing the orientation of the movement. They are related, but just like the English order "a, about, across, adamant, aegis, after, agronomy, aha, ail, ajar" has completely unrelated terms following one another in a dictionary, my dictionary is pre-supposing that one does not know the sign language at all, one only knows the writing system and is trying to look up a sign that one is coming across for the first time. 

If you only see the sign, and don't know it's context, looking at a sign sorted by grammar doesn't help you. If you don't know the sign is for an animal, then looking at "giraffe" doesn't help you, but seeing a neck and a C hand shape lets you look it up. 
 
Charles Butler
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Clear writing moves business forward.


________________________________
 From: Jonathan Duncan <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries
 


Hello Andre,
    Wouldn't each directional sign entry be sorted one after another
    according to the rotation in a specific order of rotation Charles is
    describing?  Can you give us a short example of what you mean?

Jonathan

On 8/13/2014 10:47 PM, André L wrote:

 
>Hello,
>sorting by the rotation of the hand may not be effective in LSQ
        because of directional signs. 
> 
>André Lemyre
>
> 
>
>
>________________________________
>Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:05:50 -0400
>From: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries
>To: [log in to unmask]
>
>Hi Charles,
>    I watched your talk again today.  I realized that what I
          call "Sign Sequence" you call "Sign Spelling".  I guess it is
          "SignSpelling Sequence".  So I didn't understand that the
          first time.  So now after this more attentive listening to
          your talk, I see that you definitely are using SignSpelling
          Sequence for all your entries and that you are doing them
          manually the same way Val suggested in the SignSpelling
          Guidelines.   
>    Am I correct in my understanding that which symbols come
          first in the sorted list is different from the way SignPuddle
          is sorting?  
>
>Your sorting would be sorted by the
>1. First by symbol in the sign sequence's basegroup of the
          first hand in the SignSpelling Sequence
>2. What figure (See the individual chapters)? I need more explanation about this one.
>3. The for each basegroup sort by fill
>
>4. In each fill sorting, sort by rotation ( but not distinguishing between right and left hands.  
>I see you number both from 1 to 8 in instead of numbering
            them all from 1 to 16)
>
>
>
>
>5. Location symbol. comes after hand symbol when comparing.
>From first to last 
>No Body - hand to hand, head, body 
>
>5.1 Location sorting on hand contact order doesn't seem to be defined yet
>
>5.2 Head location sorting
>
>
>
>
>5.3 Body body 
>Indicate the location of the body, placing the graphic in the
          left lane, the middle lane, or 
>right lane. - Need this explained I'm not understanding.
>Needs to have numbering for which comes first for body location
>
>
> 
>
>
>6 - What is contact? No order, any can come first.
>
>
>7.7 - Finger bends (ie no order)?No order, any can come
            first.
>
>
>8 - Movement? Vertical, then Horizontal, then Arc - up /
            down, up / abaxo + rotation, then up / down bow 
>after / below + arc rotation, face bow, face bow + rotation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Need to define which come first within the vertical, and which come first within the horizontal, etc.  Or just current default currently in ISWA2010
>Need to define movement symbols in other planes, etc.
> 
>
>    
>9 Timing.  Which comes first?
>
>
>
>10 Faces and posture.
>Not sure about this one, would like more explanation.
>
>
>Also you need to output a dictionary that has, 
>
>hand 
>spelling 
>sign 
>Portuguese 
>ASL 
>english 
>Quote
>
>Do you currently have any way of keeping all this
            information in Sign Puddle?
>SignWriter Studio can do 
>spelling
>sign-LIBRAS
>Portuguese
>English
>Source
>
>I was hoping to add a second SignLanguage to do a dictionary
            with two sign languages but I haven't programmed that yet.
>
>I am still working on finalizing the output for the
            dictionary.  So I am looking for your input whether you use
            it or not.
>
>
>Please fill me in where I am lacking and correct me where I
            am wrong.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jonathan
>
>On 8/12/2014 4:47 PM, Jonathan Duncan wrote:
>
>Hi Charles,
>>    I enjoyed your symposium “Ordering Signs in Dictionaries” http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0010.htmlgro
>> I was wondering if Steve and Val had been able to find you a solution.  Val mentioned that she thought that Steve would have an easy way for you to do your sorting.
>>
>>
>>I would like to implement a sorting algorithm for SignWriter
            Studio as I haven't implemented any yet and I am starting to
            produce a Honduran Sign Language dictionary.  
>>
>>
>>I understood how you are doing the ordering comparing hand
            shapes, comparing rotations, comparing facings, comparing
            facial areas, etc.  I like it very much.
>>
>>
>>A couple things I wanted to ask.
>>
>>For your algorithm to work properly does the sign sequence
            of a sign need to be filled out?  I am getting the
            impression that your sorting could sort dictionaries without
            the sign sequence, is this assumption correct?  Or would it
            sort signs according to the symbols in sign sequence?  It
            doesn't seem to take into account the order of the symbols
            in the sign sequence, is this correct?
>>
>>Also do you have another document comparing the other
            symbols like movement symbols, etc?  If so could you send it
            to me? 
>>
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>> 
>>-- 
>>
 email: [log in to unmask]
         [log in to unmask]
Cel Honduras: (504)3141-1171
Tel USA: (347)875-8442 
Skype: yojoduncan

SignWriter Studio


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Skype: yojoduncan

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-- 

 
email: [log in to unmask]
         [log in to unmask]
Cel Honduras: (504)3141-1171
Tel USA: (347)875-8442 
Skype: yojoduncan

SignWriter Studio
________________________________________________ 
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SignWriting List moderator
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