I agree that there is no way, in the string of symbols in the programming there is no way to tell that two hands are in contact with each other. All I can go on is two hands being shown and a contact symbol and no body, head, arm, or "other" parameter being included in the sign spelling. The order of the layout in space is going to be a challenge though I tried to do that with the symbols themselves. The graphic layout is another parameter which does exist in the coding but we haven't used it this way to show a two-dimensional array as part of the sorting. 
Charles Butler
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Clear writing moves business forward.

 From: Jonathan Duncan <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries

On 8/14/2014 10:37 AM, Stephen E Slevinski Jr wrote:

Regarding the mechanics of sorting, the first part of a sign's name is an (invisible) ordered string of symbols that default to the standard ISWA 2010 collation everywhere.  The signs will sort properly within an Excel spreadsheet, in any database (SQLite, MySQL, ...), in any programming language (JavaScript, Python, ...).  Anywhere ASCII is supported, the signs will sort according to the standard ISWA 2010.
Completly agree with you here.

>Creating a customized collation order of the ISWA 2010 is possible
      with a symbol key rewrite.  
Wouldn't a symbol key rewrite mean changing the keys for the symbols?
I had thought of something similar but not changing the symbol key. 
    We would create a new number the sort_weight.  We could combine a
    sort_base_code, a sort_fill_order, sort_rot_order to get this

In SignWriter Studio I would add four columns to my symbol table.

For hands, both hands have the same sort weight either right hand or
    left hand. See attached excel spreadsheat.

To sort no contact, then hands contacting hands, then  contacts of
    head, then contact of body can be really tricky because there
    currently isn't any way programatically to determine whether a hand
    is contacting another hand.  There are some symbols to show that
    there is contact the head or the body, these should work.     

For heads modifying sort_base_code to be all the same,
    sort_fill_order to 1, sort_rot_order to number they should be in

See attached excel spreadsheat.

Then the ordered string fo sort_weight string will be created for
    the signs's SignSpelling Sequence.  The equivalent Unicode value for
    the sort_weight can be used in  DUCET table.

Which puddles would be the best to try this sorting on so we can
    check to see if it is sorting the way we want?  It would have to
    already have the SignSpelling Sequence filled out for most of the

I still don't see a way to sort on symbols that don't exist in the
    ISWA2010 like the one used in LIBRAS for dinosaur until we add them
    to the symbols set because they don't exist yet.  This would be for
    a future version of the symbol set. 

Comments welcome

>For the ASCII, a small text file contains the rules.  
>Key S10f becomes S10e
>Key S10e becomes S10f
>For the Unicode, entries in the DUCET table are used to adjust
      collation weights.
>U+FD82F becomes U+FD92E
>U+FD92E becomes U+FD92F
>For advanced collation needs, you can rewrite entire keys. 
      Charles could rotate the Head Rims clockwise rather than
      counter-clockwise if he needed.  
>Head Rims
>The clockwise sort can be enabled with the following rules.
>Key S30007 becomes S30001
>Key S30006 becomes S30002
>Key S30005 becomes S30003
>Key S30003 becomes S30005
>Key S30002 becomes S30006
>Key S30001 becomes S30007
>Whatever Detailed Location symbols Charles requires, he can
      customize the sorting to an order of his choosing.
>For Andre, regarding rotation and sorting, that is possible with a
      specially written SignSpelling Sequence.  Any rotation used in the
      2-dimensional sign box could be ignored for the SignSpelling
>For the sign, in the sign box we would have this 2-dimensional
>For the sorting, the symbols in the SignSpelling Sequence do not
      need to be the same symbols as in the sign box.  Here is an order
      that would sort the index hand above the head without rotation.
>First is, then  
>Historically, sorting has always been an issue for every script. 
      In 11th century, the Song Chinese developed the movable type
      printing press.  Great printing houses each developed their own
      blocks and unique characters.  Many words were common between all
      houses and some words were unique for each house.  A huge volume
      of blocks were accumulated over time.  Sorting these blocks became
      an issue.  For complex blocks, little slips of paper were attached
      to the block to properly explain the sorting.
>SignWriting is very similar, except for uniquely carved
      2-dimensional blocks, we have a name with 2-dimensional order. 
      These names can be created, copied, and searched with ease.  For
      sorting, instead of a slip of paper explaining the sort, we have
      an invisible prefix that orders according to a theory.
>I believe Valerie's design of the SignSpelling Sequence is the
      most productive theory.  I believe it is the easiest to use for
      readers, writers, and programmers.  Outside of Valerie's theory, a
      wide variety of possibilities can be supported in the standard
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