Yes Valerie, I agree with you completely, and trying to print out a 3000 sign document is beyond my skills. However, within a given "Group" so one is at least working with a limited set of hand shapes, this might accomplish something even on a small scale to see how well a theory holds up. 

That's what I did for the signs that I ordered in the LIBRAS sign puddle. If the sign did not have a spelling then I added one, and then included in my dictionary only those signs that I could attest to, either by myself, or librasescrita or Marianne stumpf or a handful of other researchers that had been vetted. 

You have done this over years and perhaps what I could do would be to get a SignPuddle fully Spelled and then turn it over to you or another researcher with better software skills to print out in full so that we are all working with the same data on the printed page to chat about. 
 
Charles Butler
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From: Valerie Sutton <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries

SignWriting List
August 21, 2014

Hello Jonathan and everyone -

There are already a lot of signs in SignPuddle dictionaries with SignSpelling sequences. I have done a lot. I believe Adam has done some. And Charles and so forth…

And we all may have different ways of wanting to sort…so we may not have the same SignSpellings...

That is why it is important to realize that there is not one theory on the SignSpelling Sequences. My SignSyllables seem to be working, but within the SignSyllables there are choices that are hard to make - not every sign is easy.

That is why we have a flexible SignSpelling Column to begin with, and why the writer has to take the time to put in their theory on SignSpelling Sequences…

Because in SignBank I learned that my theories were originally not right for me…that I could not look up a sign by Location easily - that looking up by handshape was necessary - I did not learn that automatically - it took many years of trial and error -

And the most important thing is to realize that different listings of signs have different purposes -

Linguists, for their own research, may need to sort by Location sometimes - not for the everyday public’s use in dictionaries - but for their own databases needing the sequence for their special research…

So there is no such thing as the 100 per cent “correct” sequence - there will be norms and there will be dictionaries sorted under one editor’s theories -

So the Private Web Puddle, which is what we are talking about for Charles, will only give you one theory on sorting - and there is a good chance that Charles, like all writers, and especially me, may change his mind on his own theories -

Let me tell you what I learned -

The only way to really know if a SignSpelling theory seemed to be working, was to have at least 3000 signs - you need a lot of signs sorted the same way. Because you need many examples including unusual signs and they don’t come up until you have a larger dictionary.

Once you have your 3000 signs, you need to print them in PDF, and hand the printed document to a signer or two, and preferably to a classroom of sign language students and ask them to find a certain sign. Watch them try to find it - try to “look it up” in a thick document - I have not tested it enough myself…each theory has to be tested…and it can only be tested on large numbers of signs…

More soon -

Val ;-)

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On Aug 21, 2014, at 6:08 AM, Jonathan y Yolaine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Val,
    That is a great idea.  If Charles could have a private puddle but anybody could export it.  Then I could get signs that have the correct SignSpelling Sequences to work with too.

Regards,
Jonathan
On 8/20/2014 12:08 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:

I agree with you that you need a private puddle to do your sorting routines because the public SignPuddles have different contributors and we may not be sorting exactly the way you would do it - so for you to really test your theories of sorting, you will need your own private puddle -

Let me talk to Steve about this and we will get back to you -



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________________________________________________

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Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator [log in to unmask]

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