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This is exactly what I am looking at Adam. 

But shouldn't NO contact come before contact. There is no contact so shouldn't NOT come before some, just like 

A-B comes before
A-B-C with C being contact? 

There is nothing there, this is the principle I am trying to establish, NO contact at all should come before ANY contact. It's a syllable division after the face that presumes something. If there is no contact, there is no contact, so why should not NO contact come before SOME contact. 

If I'm looking for something in a normal English dictionary I don't look for 

I'm looking for actual thinking, not just a string of numbers. 

ABD before
ABC

I'm I'm looking up something, and I stop and think, I have that index finger, it's up near my face, so that should be the first thing I see, up near face with no contact at all. It's not contacting, so it is NULL, it is not CONTACT as first, it is NOTHING as first. 

Yes, I am asking for a change in the Handshape-Location-Movement order for times when there is NO contact to be first. Location is location, but NO contact should not be last, it doesn't' seem logical to me. Having ALL touches before NO touch at all doesn't seem to make any sense. I break the syllable after the location. What is happening. It's a syllable break, ask the question WHAT IS HAPPENING? Is there facial contact, yes or no, NO comes first, not last. There actually is a state of touch called "not touching" before CONTACT - its NOT touching. That is a physical state of NOT touching and it comes before the TOUCH. It's not simply "*" before "movement" it's NOT TOUCH, then TOUCH, then movement. 

I'm asking for syllabification in the spelling to take into account when a parameter is the NULL state. Not Touching is a real state, it is not simply "move to the next parameter which is movement". So touching is not a "kind of movement" it is a state and when nothing is there, that is an actual placeholder. 
 
Charles Butler
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240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.


________________________________
 From: Adam Frost <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] 
Sent: Monday, September 8, 2014 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Examples of Syllable 4: Detailed Sorting
 


So if I am reading this right, you are comparing two signs of DEAF. One with contact and one without. It seems that you are writing the SignSpelling Sequence following the basic Handshape-Location-Movement order. Ok. So that would mean that you would have DEAF with contact ordered as:


And DEAF without as:


Assuming that you are using the Symbol Sequence that is inherit with the ISWA 2010, then DEAF with contact would come first before DEAF without contact because the first contact star in DEAF with contact comes before the arrow moment in DEAF without contact.

But I’m still not seeing what you are referring to. What exactly are you trying to do?

Adam

On Sep 8, 2014, at 8:26 AM, Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Adam and Jonathan.
>
>
>What Jonathan and I are running up against is Sign-Symbol-Sequence by Syllable, so, for example with a sign like Deaf (with face contact) and Deaf (without face contact), I put the first and second positions of the face when there are no contacts but the hand is near the space BEFORE the writing where there is actual contact on the head. The only way to order them in a dictionary (for me) is to have distinct syllables and spellings within syllables. So that first-syllable INDEX HAND-NEAR EAR ARC-(second syllable)-NEAR MOUTH ARC  comes before (first syllable) HAND-EAR ARC-CONTACT-(second syllable)EAR-MOUTH-CONTACT. 
>
>
>We are trying to order positions on the Head in relation to contacts with the Head in syllables. Trying to get a fixed order of relation to one part of a syllable to the next part. 
> 
>Charles Butler
>[log in to unmask]
>240-764-5748
>Clear writing moves business forward.
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Adam Frost <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask] 
>Sent: Monday, September 8, 2014 9:58 AM
>Subject: Re: Examples of Syllable 4: Detailed Sorting
> 
>
>
>I’m not sure what you mean by 1-3. Do you mean the location on the hand? And what do you mean by Top-Down for the Face?
>
>
>As for the neck, I found this sign with SignSpelling Sequence.
>
>
>http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/searchword.php?ui=1&sgn=4&sid=9098
>
>
>For the shoulder, I found this sign with SignSpelling Sequence.
>
>
>http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/searchword.php?ui=1&sgn=4&sid=7005
>
>
>Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sep 8, 2014, at 5:56 AM, Jonathan Duncan <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>Hi,
>    Does anybody have any SignSequence examples for
>
>Syllable 4: Detailed Sorting
>1. Location Dominant Hand
>2. Location Non-Dominant Hand
>4. Face (Top-Down)
>5. Neck
>6. Shoulder
>
>
>
>I´ve looked through the sign spelling sequences for the ASL and only
    found examples for
>3. Head
>7. Torso
>8. Hips & Legs
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>-- 
>
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