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Hello Jonathan,
 
now that I am done with the symposium (1 late document) I will fix my entries in sign puddle and add some drafts I have.  
Afterward, I will prepare an Anki file for LSQ for my own purpose.  I will post it on Anki web site (low visibility :-(
It would be nice if you could host it with a 2 pages introduction to SignWriting document and a How to use Anki document. I would like also to put some publicity material.  This way, people could start their own projects by reusing my material.  High visibility :-)
I assume it is effortless to generate a dictionary with the same subset as Anki.
This would be a copy of sign puddle.  Later, separate Anki files would aim specific clientele: electricity, children, health, laws...  The idea being for me to publish 2 Anki lexiques per year for interpreters.  So my Deaf community would often see new material coming.
 
If so, I would produce my first French to LSQ dictionary: Cover page, credits, tables of contents, nice formatting, an introduction on how to read sign writing (between 2 and 20 pages).
 
After Christmas, I would like to create Anki flashcards with other sign languages to get the projects starting (ASL or LIBRA).   The idea is to support existing momentum.
It would be nice if they were on your site.  We could discuss the cover page.  You may want it to have a specific look and feel since you would host them.  The may also be on Valerie web site.
 
Thanks for this good project and for your patience.  There is so much to do.
I will let you know if needs arise for Anki or the dictionary. 
 
Andre Lemyre
 
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 10:26:29 -0600
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Signwriting keyboard Kickstarter project idea
To: [log in to unmask]


  
    
  
  
    Hi André,

       I agree that for most languages, the standard symbol set isn´t
    accurately known yet.  So best to go way of flexibility so that
    changes can be made.

    

        Do you need any new developments in SignWriter Studio for Anki? 
    I believe that it is working fine.  If you want to take some puddles
    in different languages, import them into SignWriter Studio and
    import them into ANKI.  Then export an anki package.  I can put them
    up on my SignWriter Studio web site unless you have a better place
    to put them.

    

    As for a dictionary, I am still working on spelling the entries for
    LESHO.  I hope to finish part of identifying begining and ending
    hands so that most of the signs in LESHO can be spelt, and only a
    few will have to be done manually.  Write now it is exporting the
    dictionary in an unsorted fashion.  I also need to finish reviewing
    some of the signs with a Deaf.  We have gone through about half of
    the dictionary so far.

    

    What are your plans as far a printing dictionaries?

    

    Jonathan

    On 10/16/2014 10:12 AM, André L wrote:

    
    
      
      Hello,

        my impression for LSQ is that many hand shapes are not defined
        in the standard symbol set.

        This may affect the simplified keyboard concept.

        It remains to verify if these symbols are really useful or
        simply part of the corpus for scholars.

        Such situation may occur with other languages.  Time will tell.

        I will look a this in the next weeks.

         

        This whole project will help a lot.  Good idea!

        While this project starts. I hope we will see dictionaries and
        Anki flashcards be available for a few sign languages with sign
        writer studio.

         

        Andre Lemyre

         

        
          Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 10:00:58 -0600

          From: [log in to unmask]

          Subject: Re: Signwriting keyboard Kickstarter project idea

          To: [log in to unmask]

          

          Hi Val,

              Yes I think that a smaller set of symbols based on each
          language’s needs is a good idea.  I am thinking that this
          could be the main keyboard layout and it would be customizable
          so that people who use it can adjust it to their language
          needs or to their personal preference.  If a symbol isn't
          present on this layout, then pressing a certain key would give
          a layout like SignWriter DOS but adapted to ISWA2010 of
          course, where you might have to hit two or three keys to get
          to the correct symbol.  But the most used symbols will be
          readily available with only one keystroke to get the base
          group.

          

          Regards,

          Jonathan

          

          On 10/14/2014 10:34 PM,
            Valerie Sutton wrote:

          
          
            SignWriting List
            October 14, 2014
            

            
            I feel your pain, André (Thibeault) - thank you for
              expressing this - reading is always the skill that comes
              first in all written languages - writing by hand is
              easiest - computers can be hard to learn and we are still
              in the development stage - how the software is designed is
              not really the issue, but more that writing is always
              harder than reading...
            

            
            Each sign language only uses a portion of the symbols
              in the International SignWriting Alphabet (ISWA), just as
              English does not use all the symbols in the International
              Phonetic Alphabet (IPA).
            

            
            So that is why Adam Frost wrote a book specifying the
              hand symbols needed to write American Sign Language
              (ASL): http://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs9/sw0827_American_Sign_Language_Hand_Symbols_Frost_Sutton_2013.pdf
            

            
            So maybe the keyboard design should be for only one
              sign language at a time - not for every sign language -
            

            
            Can you decide on the most important hand symbols
              needed to write LSQ? Maybe you can pin down the 68 most
              used symbols, rather than over 200 hand symbols like in
              the ISWA 2010…. and the keyboard design can be based on
              only LSQ - similar to our SignWriter DOS keyboard that had
              a limited number of symbols…
            

            
            And for me it was easy to type SignWriting and I never
              used the translate feature, but not everyone agreed and
              they wanted the mouse and asked for drag and drop - so I
              am not so sure that any computer program is perfect…
            

            
            But if each sign language can choose a smaller symbol
              set from the ISWA 2010, that will help keyboarding and
              also mouse work - both methods would benefit from a
               smaller set of symbols based on each language’s needs -
            

            
            Val ;-)
            

            
            ---------
            

            
            

            
            

              
                On Oct 14, 2014, at 7:45 PM, André Thibeault <[log in to unmask]>

                  wrote:
                
                
                  
                    
                      Hi Jonathan,
                              software developers and everyone,
                       
                      You read my three
                              precedent messages.  You know
                              that I am not a software expert.  But,
                              I strongly suggest to software developers
                              the following:
                       
                      1)                  Developing

                                a keyboard for typing a SW sign
                                language.
                      2)                  It
                                is very important that beginners can use
                                it simply and easily.
                      3)                  Beginners

                                should be able to write many sentences
                                in a Sign Language without having to use
                                a translation option.
                      4)                  Beginners

                                should not have to spend long hours
                                searching for the right symbols.
                      5)                  Beginners

                                should not be frustrated when learning
                                hard how to type a SW. It is very
                                important that they enjoy learning how
                                to type it. It should be an easy task.
                       
                      Jonathan, you
                              talked about keyboarding and mousing. It
                              is obvious that I am not a computer
                              expert. However, as mentioned above, if
                              beginners could sucessfully write many SW
                              signtexts by using a keyboard and a mouse
                              alternately or simultaneously, it would be
                              wonderful. Then, maybe a Deafian community
                              in French Canada will grow up to write
                              their own sign language.
                       
                      Best regards,
                       
                      André
                       
                    
                    

                    
                    
                      De : 
                        Jonathan Duncan <[log in to unmask]>

                        Répondre à : 
                        "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign
                        Languages" <[log in to unmask]>

                        Date : 
                        Thu, 09 Oct 2014 09:04:59 -0600

                        À : 
                        <[log in to unmask]>

                        Objet : 
                        Re: Signwriting keyboard Kickstarter project
                        idea

                      
                      

                      
                      
                         

                          On 10/9/2014
                            8:54 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote:

                          
                          
                            SignWriting List
                            October 9, 2014
                            

                            
                            Thank you, Jonathan, for taking on this
                              initiative!
                            

                            
                            I really like your idea of making the
                              SW Keyboard design that is in SignWriter
                              DOS and Java, usable on the web, with
                              SignPuddle, and also with SignWriter
                              Studio - that is a very cool idea!
                            

                            
                            I hope everyone will support this idea
                              and help all you can -
                            

                            
                            I assume that people can still use
                              SignPuddle and SignWriter Studio with a
                              mouse too, as always…
                          
                          That right this will be adding the keyboard. 
                          Not replacing anything that already exists.

                          
                            

                            
                            The SW Keyboard would be an addition to
                              the current software that is available -
                              is that right, Jonathan?
                          
                          Yes that is right. And I hope that the new
                          keyboard will be able to be  included in any
                          future websites that let the users write
                          SignWriting.  It is only the keyboard with
                          SignWriting composing capabilities but the
                          other features needed will be provide by the
                          website that is installed in.  For example 
                          you could write a document with it then save
                          it to a Literature Puddle, and use it from
                          there as you always have before.

                          

                          Or just add an Entry to the Dictionary Puddle.

                          

                          Jonathan

                          
                            

                            
                            Val ;-)
                            

                            
                            -----------
                            

                              
                                On Oct 9, 2014, at 7:45 AM,
                                  Jonathan Duncan <[log in to unmask]>


                                  wrote:
                                
                                
                                  
                                    Excellent

                                      Natasha, thanks for you interest!!

                                      

                                      Anybody else interested that I do
                                      this project?  I'm interested in
                                      all feedback.

                                      

                                      Regards Jonathan

                                      On 10/8/2014 6:14 AM, Natasha
                                      Escalada-Westland wrote:

                                    
                                    
                                      This is great!  I'm
                                        in.
                                      Natasha
                                        Escalada-Westland
                                      On Oct
                                        7, 2014 8:59 AM, "Jonathan
                                        Duncan" <[log in to unmask]>



                                        wrote:

                                        
                                          
                                            Hi List,
	I have seen that over the years the request for a keyboarding feature like SignWriter DOS has been asked for over and over and over ...  And we still don't have it.  Back in 2010 Val suggested that I implement it in SignWriter Studio.  At that time I was unable as I was getting the program up and running.  So know I want to implement the keyboarding feature but I am thinking that it would be most useful for all of you if I did it for the web then ported it back to run in SignWriter Studio at a latter date.


My idea is this create a Kickstarter project to raise the funds to make the program. It will be web page (SPA single page application) that can easily be included into other web sites.  It will be open source so that other programmers can modify it and add more features if they like.  Once I get it made then I want to incorporate it into Personal Puddle so that it will be very easy for Steve Slevinsky to add to SignPuddle online. (I am hoping he will be open to the idea).  Think of it as an alternative to the SignText Editor in SignPuddle.


These are the features I am thinking of implementing.
                                            
                                              Keyboard selection
                                                resembling as much as
                                                possible SignWriter Dos
                                                but adjusted to ISWA2010
                                              Seeing the full
                                                keyboard at all times
                                                something like this
                                              <Mail
                                                  Attachment.png>
                                              Symbol selection
                                                keyboard. (Sign Mode)
                                              Fingerspelling
                                                keyboard.
                                                (Fingerspelling Mode)
                                              Setup and customize
                                                fingerspelling layout.
                                              Setup and customize
                                                keyboard in use layout.
                                                (not everybody types
                                                with a USA keyboard)
                                            
                                             
These are the features that we need to discuss 
                                            
                                              Typing text into the
                                                sign (Alphabet Mode) See
                                                below
                                              Horizontal Sign
                                                writting (How many of
                                                you feel that it
                                                wouldn't be worth it
                                                without this?)
                                            
                                            These are the features that are not going to be part of this version of the project
                                            
                                              Write when disconneted
                                                from the Internet
                                              Use of mouse to click
                                                on keyboard or move
                                                symbols around.
                                              Printing
                                              Use of special fonts

                                              
                                            
                                            For this to work I will need you help with letting a lot of people about our Kickstart project that that they may donate if they wish.  If you want make some YouTube videos or other SignWriting related letters or information that you think could help people see the importance of supporting this project then please send them to me and I will add them to our Kickstarter project page.

For those of you who are wondering how Kickstarter works from the site itself https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics#faq_62996
                                            A project is



                                              a finite work with a clear
                                              goal that you’d like to
                                              bring to life. Think
                                              albums, books, or films.
                                            The funding goal is
                                              the amount of money that a
                                              creator needs to complete
                                              their project.
                                            Funding on Kickstarter
                                              is all-or-nothing.
                                              No one will be charged for
                                              a pledge towards a project
                                              unless it reaches its
                                              funding goal. This way,
                                              creators always have the
                                              budget they scoped out
                                              before moving forward.
                                            A creator is



                                              the person or team behind
                                              the project idea; working
                                              to bring it to life.
                                            Backers are



                                              folks who pledge money



                                              to join creators in
                                              bringing projects to life.
                                            Rewards are



                                              a creator's chance to
                                              share a piece of their
                                              project with their backer
                                              community. Typically,
                                              these are one-of-a-kind
                                              experiences, limited
                                              editions, or copies of the
                                              creative work being
                                              produced.
                                            We also have to think of what kind of rewards people in the Deaf community, people who use SignWriting and people unaquainted with sign language would appreciate most.


My take on
Typing text into the sign (Alphabet Mode)
I know this is one of the VERY big reasons people want the Keyboarding.  I could implement it but I don't believe that SignPuddle has a way of representing text on top of the SignWriting.  So you wouldn't really be able to use it until someone writes a SignWriting web site that supports text with the SignWriting.
How important is it that text can be placed anywhere as opposed to let say only below?  How do we keep it from becoming messy switching between vertical and horizontal layout?



Look forward to all of your questions and comments.

Regards,
Jonathan Duncan

SignWriting List
October 13, 2010

Hello Jonathan and Steve -
Thanks for these messages. Richard Gleaves is the developer of the original SignWriter program, which was first developed for the Apple //e and //c in 1986, and was then transferred and developed further in MS-DOS. SignWriter DOS was our world standard program from the late 1980s until 1996, when Richard Gleaves stopped working with SignWriting, and started working for Qualcomm, here in San Diego, California. So Rich lives close to me here, and I will be seeing him in the next month, so we can always turn to Rich with questions if you need his input. I also have his Source Code, for SignWriter DOS here, which I will be happy to send to you privately. The last symbolset that we were using, at the time that Rich stopped developing SignWriter in 1996, was the symbolset called SSS-1995.

Then, in 1996, I hired a company that was using a new development language very modern and cutting edge, called Java. it was new then, and there was not automatic way to program printing from Java yet, but I hired a company to transfer the SignWriter DOS code over to Java, but it took longer and was a harder job than the company expected, and they stopped doing the development. So the end result was SignWriter Java, which cannot print, and it is only for one country at a time (SignWriter DOS can switch back and forth easily between countries)...so because SignWriter DOS is more complete, most people who want SignWriter are most likely still using SignWriter DOS using DOSBox, which is required in modern operating systems.

However, having said that, SignWriter Java still has the same typing system (keyboarding)...but it created new features that are NOT in SignWriter DOS...the biggest difference between SignWriter DOS and SignWriter Java is that the Java version allows some mouse work, where SignWriter DOS is solely keyboard - no mouse capability whatsoever.

To learn about how to type using SignWriter DOS, read the documents on this web page:

SignWriter 4.4 Instruction (how to type)
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw44/sw44less/index.html
(I can send you the source code if you want it)

To download the sources for SignWriter Java, go to:
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/download/download01.htmlhttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/download/download02.htmlhttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/download/download03.html

SignWriter Tiger uses the sss-1999 symbolset. To learn about Daniel Noelpp Ly's programming of SignWriter Tiger, and to download his source code, go to:
http://www.signwriter.org/

The end result of all these beautiful programs were that between 1996 until 2004 when we met Steve, we had many developers graciously offer to help, but because the jobs were so enormous and more complicated than people expected, SignWriter DOS never got re-written well enough to become a modern typing program...

The typing system that Rich Gleaves and I designed works beautifully, and Steve was kind enough to implement some of the Special Command Keys from our design in SignWriter DOS, into Command Buttons in SignPuddle, for example for Rotate, which used to be the Rotate Key in SignWriter DOS, and the Mirror or Flop Button, that is the MIrror Key in SignWriter DOS...so I think users remember these details and recognize them from program to program...

If you would like to learn to type using SignWriter DOS, Jonathan, let's get together on Skype, and I can teach you one on one how to type quickly using SignWriter DOS. If you can implement the same typing system in SignWriter Studio, that would be a miracle and make your program the obvious choice for SignWriter DOS users, because you will have the best of both worlds - SignWriter Studio would become the alternative for SignWriter DOS users -

By the way, go to SymbolBank for downloading these different symbolsets from over the years...

Sutton's SymbolBank
http://www.movementwriting.org/symbolbank/

Val ;-)

------


On Oct 13, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Jonathan y Yolaine wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>     Thank you for filling me on this information.
>     Which of the two programs in your opinion has the most users?  SignWriter DOS or SignWriter Java?  Which created the most documents?
>     So if I understand correctly SignWriter DOS still has SSS-95 symbols.and SignWriter Tiger has SSS-99.
> Do you know what kind of format SignWriter Tiger is using?  Is it a binary file too?
>
> Do you know if there is source code for SignWriter DOS?  If it's available, it would be a lot easier to figure out how to read the binary file.  What language was that programmed in anyway? C?
>
> So I guess if we were to read the SignWriter DOS files to convert to BSW or a XML format to be used with other programs, we would need to first figure out how to read the files and then write a conversion algorithm from S-95 to ISWA2010.  Going the other way would be counter productive because SSS-95 is a much more limited symbol set and a lot of symbols in ISWA 2010 do not have a corresponding symbol in SSS-95.
>
> Jonathan
> On 10/13/2010 11:08 AM, Steve Slevinski wrote:
>>  The SignWriter keyboarding style is great.  There is a steep learning curve that is worth the effort to learn.  There are multiple layers of fine tuning that went into the SignWriter keyboard design over the years.  Valerie and Richard Gleaves spent years improving the flow using a detailed symbol editor that controlled the default behaviors for centering and cursor controls.  Different symbols needed different information that had to be manually created.
>>
>> Unfortunately, SignWriter Dos uses dense binary files to store and retrieve information.  There was a tool released to convert SignWriter Dos SSS-95 binary files to SignWriter Java SSS-99 data files.
>>
>> I believe SignWriter skipped SSS-2002.  I think SW-Edit uses the SSS-2002.
>>
>> I started using the SSS-2004 symbol set, which became known as the IMWA.
>>
>> The conversion between the IMWA and the ISWA 2008 is about 99.99% accurate.  Some symbols are slightly off center.
>>
>> The conversion between the ISWA 2008 and the ISWA 2010 is flawless.
>>
>> Keyboarding should return.  Eventually, we'll need to create an advanced symbol editor for the ISWA 2010 so that we can capture and process specialized symbol information for keyboarding.  This will fine tune the keyboarding experience and improve a writer's speed and accuracy.
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Steve
>>
>>
>
>
> --
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            Tel USA: (347)875-8442 

            Skype: yojoduncan

            

            SignWriter Studio

        
      
    
  

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SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
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________________________________________________


SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
[log in to unmask]

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
[log in to unmask]

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
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