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Hello all,
I read each statement  you suggests.
It is all excellent.
My own brainstorm will follow in another e-mail.
 
André Lemyre
 
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 05:56:04 -0600
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Signwriting keyboard Kickstarter project update
To: [log in to unmask]


  
    
  
  
    Hi List, 

        I have been looking over the great suggestions from the members
    of the list and as with most programming projects, the first project
    specifications aren't usually what the users really want.  So this
    discussion has been fruitful because even though the initial
    requirement was a SignWriter DOS like keyboard, the real intent is
    to be able to write SignWriting with a keyboard easily and with the
    least resistance possible and to make it as easy as possible for
    beginners.  

    

    Features 

    General look and feel

        The general feel and look of this project will be like the
    keyboards that appear when you need to type in text on a tablet.

    

    Frequently used symbols keyboard

        I am hoping to have a most used symbol group layout, second most
    used and third most used layout switching by pressing Shift or Tab
    (need to check for any programming difficulties here).  Much like
    tablets have different keyboard layouts, one for text, one for
    symbols, one for smileys etc.   That will give us quick access to
    the 141 most used symbols.  

        Pressing any of the keys will bring to a listing of 16 rotations
    and can switch between the different fills.  

        So any symbol should be selectable by 3 keystrokes including
    facing and rotation if it's a frequently used symbol and if it´s on
    the third frequently used layout up to five keystrokes .  The most
    frequent symbols will be on the first layout and on the left to
    minimize the right hand going from the mouse to the keyboard as
    often.

        All the keys on the keyboard can be clicked on with mouse. Arrow
    keys can be used to move the symbol within the sign, or it can be
    dragged with the mouse.

        I can't select the most frequent symbols for every sign
    language.  So I will do it for some of the biggest Puddles and come
    up with the most frequent symbols among those.  These layouts will
    be customizable and can be shared and easily selected by other user
    to use. So other people can customize the Frequently used symbols
    keyboard for their own sign language or their own personal taste.

    

    ISWASymbols keyboard

        This will be another mode to type symbols that aren't within the
    most frequently used symbols.

    It will resemble SignWriter Dos but adjusted to ISWA2010.  It will
    display as many symbols as possible on the first layout.  Then as
    many as possible on the second and so forth until the desired symbol
    is found. The last layout will show the possible rotations for a
    symbols group and possibility to select another fill.  Where
    possible the most used features will be on the left so you won't
    have to move your hand off of the mouse as often.

    This keyboard won't be customizable.

    

    Fingerspelling keyboard

        For a given language up to 47 symbols.  Only one layout will be
    provided by default.  Probably ASL.  Users will be able to type and
    the symbols will line up vertically.  To keep things simple and keep
    the cost down fingerspelling won't work horizontally but can be
    added in a future release if enough people feel that is it missing.

        This layout will be customizable so that user can create layout
    for other sign language and share them.

    

    Keyboard setup

        Not everybody is using USA English keyboard.  So the keyboard
    layout or letters can customized to match the keyboard you are using
    and can be made public.  This is so that the program knows which key
    you pressed therefore which symbol.

    

    Vertical SignWriting

        To keep things simple, and keep the costs down only it will only
    do vertical SignWriting.  Horizontal SignWriting can be added in a
    future verson if enough people feel that it is needed.

    

    Saving Document

        The Keyboard will be able to export FSW to SignPuddle just as
    SignWriter Studio can.

        Will be able to save to a JSON text format

        Will be able to save to a FSW text format

    

    Loading Document

        Can load JSON format text

        Can load FSW text

        Can Paste in FSW text

    

    None supported features

        Typing text into the sign (Alphabet Mode)   DELEGS online
    already does a better job at this.

         Sign auto completion.  This could be useful but is too much for
    the first version of this software.  Maybe the next version.

      

    Code    

        Code will be licensed under the Open Source MIT

        Code will be made available to all programmers on GitHub

    

    Please let me know if you have any other suggestions or if I left
    any important parts out.

    

    Regards,

    Jonathan

    

    On 10/14/2014 10:34 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:

    
      
      SignWriting List
      October 14, 2014
      

      
      I feel your pain, André (Thibeault) - thank you for
        expressing this - reading is always the skill that comes first
        in all written languages - writing by hand is easiest -
        computers can be hard to learn and we are still in the
        development stage - how the software is designed is not really
        the issue, but more that writing is always harder than
        reading...
      

      
      Each sign language only uses a portion of the symbols in the
        International SignWriting Alphabet (ISWA), just as English does
        not use all the symbols in the International Phonetic Alphabet
        (IPA).
      

      
      So that is why Adam Frost wrote a book specifying the hand
        symbols needed to write American Sign Language (ASL): http://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs9/sw0827_American_Sign_Language_Hand_Symbols_Frost_Sutton_2013.pdf
      

      
      So maybe the keyboard design should be for only one sign
        language at a time - not for every sign language -
      

      
      Can you decide on the most important hand symbols needed to
        write LSQ? Maybe you can pin down the 68 most used symbols,
        rather than over 200 hand symbols like in the ISWA 2010…. and
        the keyboard design can be based on only LSQ - similar to our
        SignWriter DOS keyboard that had a limited number of symbols…
      

      
      And for me it was easy to type SignWriting and I never used
        the translate feature, but not everyone agreed and they wanted
        the mouse and asked for drag and drop - so I am not so sure that
        any computer program is perfect…
      

      
      But if each sign language can choose a smaller symbol set
        from the ISWA 2010, that will help keyboarding and also mouse
        work - both methods would benefit from a  smaller set of symbols
        based on each language’s needs -
      

      
      Val ;-)
      

      
      ---------
      

      
      

      
      

        
          On Oct 14, 2014, at 7:45 PM, André Thibeault <[log in to unmask]>
            wrote:
          
          
            
              
                Hi Jonathan, software
                        developers and everyone,
                 
                You read my three
                        precedent messages.  You know that
                        I am not a software expert.  But, I
                        strongly suggest to software developers the
                        following:
                 
                1)                  Developing
                          a keyboard for typing a SW sign language.
                2)                  It is
                          very important that beginners can use it
                          simply and easily.
                3)                  Beginners
                          should be able to write many sentences in a
                          Sign Language without having to use a
                          translation option.
                4)                  Beginners
                          should not have to spend long hours searching
                          for the right symbols.
                5)                  Beginners
                          should not be frustrated when learning hard
                          how to type a SW. It is very important that
                          they enjoy learning how to type it. It should
                          be an easy task.
                 
                Jonathan, you talked
                        about keyboarding and mousing. It is obvious
                        that I am not a computer expert. However, as
                        mentioned above, if beginners could sucessfully
                        write many SW signtexts by using a keyboard and
                        a mouse alternately or simultaneously, it would
                        be wonderful. Then, maybe a Deafian community in
                        French Canada will grow up to write their own
                        sign language.
                 
                Best regards,
                 
                André
                 
              
              

              
              
                De :  Jonathan
                  Duncan <[log in to unmask]>

                  Répondre à : 
                  "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" <[log in to unmask]>

                  Date :  Thu, 09
                  Oct 2014 09:04:59 -0600

                  À :  <[log in to unmask]>

                  Objet :  Re:
                  Signwriting keyboard Kickstarter project idea

                
                

                
                
                  
                   

                    On 10/9/2014 8:54 AM,
                      Valerie Sutton wrote:

                    
                    
                      
                      SignWriting List
                      October 9, 2014
                      

                      
                      Thank you, Jonathan, for taking on this
                        initiative!
                      

                      
                      I really like your idea of making the SW
                        Keyboard design that is in SignWriter DOS and
                        Java, usable on the web, with SignPuddle, and
                        also with SignWriter Studio - that is a very
                        cool idea!
                      

                      
                      I hope everyone will support this idea and
                        help all you can -
                      

                      
                      I assume that people can still use SignPuddle
                        and SignWriter Studio with a mouse too, as
                        always…
                    
                    That right this will be adding the keyboard.  Not
                    replacing anything that already exists.

                    
                      

                      
                      The SW Keyboard would be an addition to the
                        current software that is available - is that
                        right, Jonathan?
                    
                    Yes that is right. And I hope that the new keyboard
                    will be able to be  included in any future websites
                    that let the users write SignWriting.  It is only
                    the keyboard with SignWriting composing capabilities
                    but the other features needed will be provide by the
                    website that is installed in.  For example  you
                    could write a document with it then save it to a
                    Literature Puddle, and use it from there as you
                    always have before.

                    

                    Or just add an Entry to the Dictionary Puddle.

                    

                    Jonathan

                    
                      

                      
                      Val ;-)
                      

                      
                      -----------
                      

                        
                          On Oct 9, 2014, at 7:45 AM, Jonathan
                            Duncan <[log in to unmask]>

                            wrote:
                          
                          
                            
                            
                              Excellent
                                Natasha, thanks for you interest!!

                                

                                Anybody else interested that I do this
                                project?  I'm interested in all
                                feedback.

                                

                                Regards Jonathan

                                On 10/8/2014 6:14 AM, Natasha
                                Escalada-Westland wrote:

                              
                              
                                This is great!  I'm in.
                                Natasha Escalada-Westland
                                On Oct 7, 2014
                                  8:59 AM, "Jonathan Duncan" <[log in to unmask]>


                                  wrote:

                                  
                                    
                                      Hi List,
	I have seen that over the years the request for a keyboarding feature like SignWriter DOS has been asked for over and over and over ...  And we still don't have it.  Back in 2010 Val suggested that I implement it in SignWriter Studio.  At that time I was unable as I was getting the program up and running.  So know I want to implement the keyboarding feature but I am thinking that it would be most useful for all of you if I did it for the web then ported it back to run in SignWriter Studio at a latter date.


My idea is this create a Kickstarter project to raise the funds to make the program. It will be web page (SPA single page application) that can easily be included into other web sites.  It will be open source so that other programmers can modify it and add more features if they like.  Once I get it made then I want to incorporate it into Personal Puddle so that it will be very easy for Steve Slevinsky to add to SignPuddle online. (I am hoping he will be open to the idea).  Think of it as an alternative to the SignText Editor in SignPuddle.


These are the features I am thinking of implementing.
                                      
                                        Keyboard selection
                                          resembling as much as possible
                                          SignWriter Dos but adjusted to
                                          ISWA2010
                                        Seeing the full keyboard at
                                          all times something like this
                                        <Mail
                                            Attachment.png>
                                        Symbol selection keyboard.
                                          (Sign Mode)
                                        Fingerspelling keyboard.
                                          (Fingerspelling Mode)
                                        Setup and customize
                                          fingerspelling layout.
                                        Setup and customize keyboard
                                          in use layout. (not everybody
                                          types with a USA keyboard)
                                      
                                       
These are the features that we need to discuss 
                                      
                                        Typing text into the sign
                                          (Alphabet Mode) See below
                                        Horizontal Sign writting
                                          (How many of you feel that it
                                          wouldn't be worth it without
                                          this?)
                                      
                                      These are the features that are not going to be part of this version of the project
                                      
                                        Write when disconneted from
                                          the Internet
                                        Use of mouse to click on
                                          keyboard or move symbols
                                          around.
                                        Printing
                                        Use of special fonts

                                        
                                      
                                      For this to work I will need you help with letting a lot of people about our Kickstart project that that they may donate if they wish.  If you want make some YouTube videos or other SignWriting related letters or information that you think could help people see the importance of supporting this project then please send them to me and I will add them to our Kickstarter project page.

For those of you who are wondering how Kickstarter works from the site itself https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics#faq_62996
                                      A project is


                                        a finite work with a clear goal
                                        that you’d like to bring to
                                        life. Think albums, books, or
                                        films.
                                      The funding



                                          goal is the amount of
                                        money that a creator needs to
                                        complete their project.
                                      Funding on Kickstarter is all-or-nothing.
                                        No one will be charged for a
                                        pledge towards a project unless
                                        it reaches its funding goal.
                                        This way, creators always have
                                        the budget they scoped out
                                        before moving forward.
                                      A creator is


                                        the person or team behind the
                                        project idea; working to bring
                                        it to life.
                                      Backers are


                                        folks who pledge money


                                        to join creators in bringing
                                        projects to life.
                                      Rewards are


                                        a creator's chance to share a
                                        piece of their project with
                                        their backer community.
                                        Typically, these are
                                        one-of-a-kind experiences,
                                        limited editions, or copies of
                                        the creative work being
                                        produced.
                                      We also have to think of what kind of rewards people in the Deaf community, people who use SignWriting and people unaquainted with sign language would appreciate most.


My take on
Typing text into the sign (Alphabet Mode)
I know this is one of the VERY big reasons people want the Keyboarding.  I could implement it but I don't believe that SignPuddle has a way of representing text on top of the SignWriting.  So you wouldn't really be able to use it until someone writes a SignWriting web site that supports text with the SignWriting.
How important is it that text can be placed anywhere as opposed to let say only below?  How do we keep it from becoming messy switching between vertical and horizontal layout?



Look forward to all of your questions and comments.

Regards,
Jonathan Duncan

SignWriting List
October 13, 2010

Hello Jonathan and Steve -
Thanks for these messages. Richard Gleaves is the developer of the original SignWriter program, which was first developed for the Apple //e and //c in 1986, and was then transferred and developed further in MS-DOS. SignWriter DOS was our world standard program from the late 1980s until 1996, when Richard Gleaves stopped working with SignWriting, and started working for Qualcomm, here in San Diego, California. So Rich lives close to me here, and I will be seeing him in the next month, so we can always turn to Rich with questions if you need his input. I also have his Source Code, for SignWriter DOS here, which I will be happy to send to you privately. The last symbolset that we were using, at the time that Rich stopped developing SignWriter in 1996, was the symbolset called SSS-1995.

Then, in 1996, I hired a company that was using a new development language very modern and cutting edge, called Java. it was new then, and there was not automatic way to program printing from Java yet, but I hired a company to transfer the SignWriter DOS code over to Java, but it took longer and was a harder job than the company expected, and they stopped doing the development. So the end result was SignWriter Java, which cannot print, and it is only for one country at a time (SignWriter DOS can switch back and forth easily between countries)...so because SignWriter DOS is more complete, most people who want SignWriter are most likely still using SignWriter DOS using DOSBox, which is required in modern operating systems.

However, having said that, SignWriter Java still has the same typing system (keyboarding)...but it created new features that are NOT in SignWriter DOS...the biggest difference between SignWriter DOS and SignWriter Java is that the Java version allows some mouse work, where SignWriter DOS is solely keyboard - no mouse capability whatsoever.

To learn about how to type using SignWriter DOS, read the documents on this web page:

SignWriter 4.4 Instruction (how to type)
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw44/sw44less/index.html
(I can send you the source code if you want it)

To download the sources for SignWriter Java, go to:
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/download/download01.htmlhttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/download/download02.htmlhttp://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/download/download03.html

SignWriter Tiger uses the sss-1999 symbolset. To learn about Daniel Noelpp Ly's programming of SignWriter Tiger, and to download his source code, go to:
http://www.signwriter.org/

The end result of all these beautiful programs were that between 1996 until 2004 when we met Steve, we had many developers graciously offer to help, but because the jobs were so enormous and more complicated than people expected, SignWriter DOS never got re-written well enough to become a modern typing program...

The typing system that Rich Gleaves and I designed works beautifully, and Steve was kind enough to implement some of the Special Command Keys from our design in SignWriter DOS, into Command Buttons in SignPuddle, for example for Rotate, which used to be the Rotate Key in SignWriter DOS, and the Mirror or Flop Button, that is the MIrror Key in SignWriter DOS...so I think users remember these details and recognize them from program to program...

If you would like to learn to type using SignWriter DOS, Jonathan, let's get together on Skype, and I can teach you one on one how to type quickly using SignWriter DOS. If you can implement the same typing system in SignWriter Studio, that would be a miracle and make your program the obvious choice for SignWriter DOS users, because you will have the best of both worlds - SignWriter Studio would become the alternative for SignWriter DOS users -

By the way, go to SymbolBank for downloading these different symbolsets from over the years...

Sutton's SymbolBank
http://www.movementwriting.org/symbolbank/

Val ;-)

------


On Oct 13, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Jonathan y Yolaine wrote:

> Hi Steve,
>     Thank you for filling me on this information.
>     Which of the two programs in your opinion has the most users?  SignWriter DOS or SignWriter Java?  Which created the most documents?
>     So if I understand correctly SignWriter DOS still has SSS-95 symbols.and SignWriter Tiger has SSS-99.
> Do you know what kind of format SignWriter Tiger is using?  Is it a binary file too?
>
> Do you know if there is source code for SignWriter DOS?  If it's available, it would be a lot easier to figure out how to read the binary file.  What language was that programmed in anyway? C?
>
> So I guess if we were to read the SignWriter DOS files to convert to BSW or a XML format to be used with other programs, we would need to first figure out how to read the files and then write a conversion algorithm from S-95 to ISWA2010.  Going the other way would be counter productive because SSS-95 is a much more limited symbol set and a lot of symbols in ISWA 2010 do not have a corresponding symbol in SSS-95.
>
> Jonathan
> On 10/13/2010 11:08 AM, Steve Slevinski wrote:
>>  The SignWriter keyboarding style is great.  There is a steep learning curve that is worth the effort to learn.  There are multiple layers of fine tuning that went into the SignWriter keyboard design over the years.  Valerie and Richard Gleaves spent years improving the flow using a detailed symbol editor that controlled the default behaviors for centering and cursor controls.  Different symbols needed different information that had to be manually created.
>>
>> Unfortunately, SignWriter Dos uses dense binary files to store and retrieve information.  There was a tool released to convert SignWriter Dos SSS-95 binary files to SignWriter Java SSS-99 data files.
>>
>> I believe SignWriter skipped SSS-2002.  I think SW-Edit uses the SSS-2002.
>>
>> I started using the SSS-2004 symbol set, which became known as the IMWA.
>>
>> The conversion between the IMWA and the ISWA 2008 is about 99.99% accurate.  Some symbols are slightly off center.
>>
>> The conversion between the ISWA 2008 and the ISWA 2010 is flawless.
>>
>> Keyboarding should return.  Eventually, we'll need to create an advanced symbol editor for the ISWA 2010 so that we can capture and process specialized symbol information for keyboarding.  This will fine tune the keyboarding experience and improve a writer's speed and accuracy.
>>
>> Regards,
>> -Steve
>>
>>
>
>
> --
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>
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