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SignWriting List
July 24, 2015

André
Merci pour ce message. Il est bon de vous entendre à nouveau.

S'il vous plaît allez-y et écrire en français avec pas de traductions;-)

Je suis désolé si vous pensiez que je tenu traductions - Il n'y a aucun problème à écrire en français parce que nous pouvons toujours traduire nous-mêmes ... vous ne devez rien faire ...

Je l'espère Google Translate a fait un bon travail avec la traduction française ci-dessus ... sourire ...

Val;-)

------------------------------------------

André
Thank you for this message. It is great to hear from you again.

Please go right ahead and write in French with no translations ;-)

I am sorry if you thought I required translations - There is no problem writing in French because we can always translate it ourselves…you do not have to do anything…

I hope Google Translate did a good job with the French translation above…smile…

Val ;-)


> On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:23 AM, André Thibeault <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> Hi Dr. Abushaira, Val and everyone,
> 
> Dr. Abushaira:  I cannot watch any
> presentations on YouTube because I am blind.  Val did post your survey on
> the SW list and I did read it.  If you need to improve your survey in the
> future, I suggest adding a few questions such as:
> 
> 1) Are you?
> A) Deaf
> B) Hearing
> C) Other
> 
> 2) Do you translate many sentences from your
> written spoken language, or from your glossed texts to your SW sign
> language or
> sign texts?
> A) Never
> B) Rarely
> C) Sometimes
> D) Often
> E) Always
> 
> 3) Do you write many sentences in your sign
> language without using any translation options?
> A) Never
> B) Rarely
> C) Sometimes
> D) Often
> E) Always
> 
> I posted a few messages on the SW list.  I am
> Deafian and I daily use the LSQ (Quebec Sign Language). I am unable to
> write daily
> with a mouse (SignPuddle online) many LSQ sentences without using any
> translation
> options.  However, I am able to write daily with a keyboard (Microsoft
> Word) many French sentences without using any translation options.  I know
> that Val does not like that.  I am sorry if I am too forward about this.
> 
> Val: Would I read any PowerPoint presentation
> using notes?  If so, how could I use them?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> André
> 
> 
> Le 15-07-23 18:43, « Valerie Sutton » <[log in to unmask]> a écrit :
> 
>> SignWriting List
>> July 23, 2015
>> 
>> Hello Adrean -
>> 
>> There are no “out-groups” in my world…writing sign languages is a
>> wonderful tool and should be open to all -
>> 
>> Yes, there are many ways to write sign languages, and certainly all
>> methods have their good points and no one is trying to deny anyone
>> anything - we are working hard to encourage the reading and writing of
>> sign languages around the world -
>> 
>> In our case, we happen to work with the SignWriting script, but of course
>> Dr. Stokoe and others like yourself, have developed excellent systems too
>> - The world continues and there is room enough for everyone and every new
>> idea -
>> 
>> Yes, within the SignWriting script, we have discussed writing symbols
>> sequentially, one after the other, like the Latin or Roman alphabet
>> places symbols one after the other in a string, and obviously when
>> writing fingerspelling using SignWriting symbols, because the
>> fingerspelling is showing a spoken language spelling, we oftentimes type
>> fingerspelling from left to right sequentially…but for writing signs that
>> are not fingerspelling, the signs relating to the head, face, body  -
>> showing the hand above the head when it really is above the head in real
>> signing - that seemed to work best for easy reading to write the hand
>> symbol above the head - and so we stack our symbols to relate to the
>> human body  - if my hand is below the head, I write it below…if the hand
>> is to the side of the head, we write it to the side of the head and so
>> forth…so that is our choice within our system - We have discussed this
>> for years, and we have chosen to develop software to make this possible,
>> and that is one of the unique characteristics of SignWriting…
>> 
>> Of course, this has given many software developers big large projects
>> trying to program it - and to all the SignWriting programmers in the
>> world - I say a big thank you!
>> 
>> Regarding using the SignWriting software, like me…I am not a software
>> developer…I enjoy writing with the programs that are provided by so many
>> fine programmers today…For example, have you tried SignPuddle Online? Or
>> maybe even DELEGS?
>> 
>> Here is the link for the ASL DELEGS: Just start typing an English gloss
>> to access signs…you may have to wait for it to load...
>> 
>> Delegs for ASL
>> http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/?locale=en&signlocale=asl
>> 
>> Regarding Presentation 42, by Dr. Mohamed Abushaira - that is a totally
>> different issue. Dr Abushaira has used SignWriting in schools in Jordan
>> and Saudi Arabia, but he would like to hope that maybe more than one
>> school or one classroom would be interested in reading and writing signs,
>> but projects get started in the schools, and they continue for around 5
>> years and the students and the teachers love writing signs, and then the
>> teachers retire or the administration from the school changes and the
>> project stops and writing signs stops as well - this is a pattern we have
>> experienced in the US too - so it is not unique to other countries -
>> supporting the writing of sign languages in the school systems is very
>> hard because there are many people who do not know ASL well teaching in
>> the schools and parents are worried their children will not learn English
>> - Dr. AbuShaira’s excellent Presentation 42 in the SignWriting Symposium
>> asked teachers to take a survey on their feelings spe
>> cifically about the SignWriting Script, and it was very positive, but
>> Stefan was trying to point out that the survey did not ask people who had
>> never heard of it, or who had mis-impressions about it - that the survey
>> needed to have a broader audience - and I believe that Dr. AbuShaira
>> would be the first to agree - we need to do more surveys and studies on
>> what is needed - Thank you Dr. AbuShaira!
>> 
>> Val ;-)
>> 
>> -----------
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 9:46 AM, Adrean Clark <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your message too, Valerie. It's always good to read from
>>> you!
>>> 
>>> To clarify what I meant by walls -- it can range from outright
>>> hostility to benign neglect. Fortunately I'm not getting any animosity
>>> from Signwriting circles but it has happened with other methods to
>>> extreme effect. It's normal for humans to band together (Mac vs. PC
>>> anyone?) but that also means that over time the "in-group" develops
>>> terminology and systems that decreases access to the "out-group."
>>> 
>>> One small example, the Signwriting software is way over my head at
>>> this point but I can see the potential for it to fork so that it can
>>> be a platform to support planar* written ASL in general. That's just
>>> one thought. I'm not a "rocket surgeon" when it comes to programming
>>> but surely that is something worth thinking about?
>>> 
>>> (*Linear vs. planar refers to the main categories of writing SL.
>>> Linear is a la Stokoe where the elements of a signed word are placed
>>> next to each other like English letters. Planar is what Signwriting
>>> does by condensing 3D language into a 2D space.)
>>> 
>>> One more thing -- I know that a lot of discussion has happened over
>>> the last 40 years and I'm a newcomer here. My apologies if my comments
>>> rehash something that the group has already decided upon. There's a
>>> lot I need to learn from you all! :)
>>> 
>>> ‿·⪦˒˒
>>> 
>>> *****
>>> Adrean Clark
>>> 
>>> Author and Artist
>>> 
>>> http://www.adreanclark.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Valerie Sutton <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> SignWriting List
>>>> July 23, 2015
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Adrean!
>>>> Thank you for this great message - it very meaningful and I
>>>> wholeheartedly
>>>> agree with you!
>>>> 
>>>> I look forward to answering in more detail next week.
>>>> 
>>>> There are no walls or barriers. Everything in SignWriting is 100 per
>>>> cent
>>>> free - no cost, and no restrictions. Everyone is free to use the
>>>> system as
>>>> they wish…and of course there are other systems, such as ASLwrite,
>>>> which is
>>>> very beautiful. Thank you for ASLwrite!
>>>> 
>>>> All writing systems for sign languages should be supported and
>>>> encouraged
>>>> because writing sign languages is beneficial for the world -
>>>> 
>>>> So right now, we are in an intermission between our presentations. Day
>>>> 3 of
>>>> the SignWriting Symposium is being presented right now. I apologize
>>>> that we
>>>> do not have ASL interpreting this year. Last year, Adam Frost
>>>> interpreted
>>>> all of the English-speaking sessions into ASL, in the 2014 Symposium,
>>>> but
>>>> this year we decided to record the presentation LIVE and then add the
>>>> interpretation later - Because the videos will be up on the web for
>>>> generations to come.
>>>> 
>>>> I cannot tell you how much I want to add different language
>>>> interpretations
>>>> of the presentations - not only for ASL but to add Portuguese Sign
>>>> Language
>>>> and Brazilian Sign Language and Arabic Sign Language interpreters, and
>>>> to
>>>> also add captions in the spoken languages of these countries, because
>>>> we
>>>> need real communication to discuss writing sign languages - this year
>>>> there
>>>> are 8 countries presenting, and last year we had 12 countries, and
>>>> because
>>>> of lack of funds I have not been able to do all the 32 hours of video
>>>> from
>>>> last year……but we will definitely do it.
>>>> 
>>>> So we have a lot of software development around the world and the next
>>>> two
>>>> presentations today is about software development - one new program is
>>>> ongoing in Brazil…that is Session 2 coming up at the half hour…and then
>>>> Steve Slevinski, the developer of SignPuddle Online, will be
>>>> presenting his
>>>> new work, called SignMaker 2015.
>>>> 
>>>> I hope everyone can watch:
>>>> 
>>>> Watch on Google Hangouts:
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/2015/Google_Hangouts.html#Day3
>>>> 
>>>> Watch on YouTube
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/2015/Live_Streaming.html#Day3
>>>> 
>>>> We will talk more, Adrean - and thank you for writing!
>>>> 
>>>> Val ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 8:39 AM, Adrean Clark <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> This email has been on my mind for the last couple of days. What I'm
>>>> about
>>>> to write may be heresy but please bear with me. :)
>>>> 
>>>> "Well as long as we ask people and teachers who already got the chance
>>>> to
>>>> overcome their prejudice..."
>>>> 
>>>> There's two different kinds of prejudice -- the first is against
>>>> written
>>>> sign language in general, and the second is against a certain method or
>>>> several methods of writing. It's important to recognize the difference
>>>> because they each require a unique response.
>>>> 
>>>> If someone is against writing SL in general, then we can demonstrate
>>>> how
>>>> it's possible. However, that person may not always respond to the
>>>> method
>>>> that we choose to demonstrate with. It would be like using a hammer to
>>>> drive
>>>> in a screw -- which could work but leaves the wrong impression on the
>>>> listener.
>>>> 
>>>> Which brings me to the next comment:
>>>> 
>>>> "Would be soooo tremendously important to find out whether there is any
>>>> chance to reach out to people who do ot see any sense, desire ..to put
>>>> any
>>>> effort in learning to become familiar with SignWriting. .."
>>>> 
>>>> I was one of those people who had no desire to put in the effort to
>>>> learn
>>>> Signwriting. My first memorable experience with Signwriting was back
>>>> in my
>>>> Gallaudet days. Someone gave me a publication that had a block of
>>>> Signwriting text in it. I remember being excited about the possibility
>>>> of
>>>> writing in ASL but my excitement was immediately tempered with the
>>>> inaccessibility of the text. This was back around 1997 so the
>>>> information
>>>> wasn't easily obtainable.
>>>> 
>>>> Many years later, I came across the Signwriting website and the
>>>> opposite
>>>> happened. It was information overload. My eyes (sensibilities) had also
>>>> changed with the intervening years. I'm a graphic designer/illustrator
>>>> by
>>>> trade -- in a nutshell my job is to take complex concepts and turn
>>>> them into
>>>> appealing and accessible images. Signwriting's shapes to me are too
>>>> rough
>>>> for easy reading. It's not an enjoyable experience, so I gave up at
>>>> that
>>>> point.
>>>> 
>>>> However, I didn't give up on written SL in general. This is because of
>>>> my
>>>> comics work. It drove me nuts that other artists could write comics in
>>>> their
>>>> native language and I couldn't. ASLwrite gave me the ability to quickly
>>>> create full ASL dialogue in 2D space. In a roundabout way it eventually
>>>> brought me back to Signwriting, not as my chosen method for expression
>>>> but
>>>> as one that I could finally grasp and learn from.
>>>> 
>>>> "How about if students in ASL – instruction courses for hearing as
>>>> well as
>>>> parents of deaf students would simply ask the teacher/instructor to
>>>> offer
>>>> reasonable materials written in SignWriting. SignWriting competence
>>>> should
>>>> become a subject in education for coming teachers for deaf students
>>>> and for
>>>> SignLanguage instructors... interpreters..."
>>>> 
>>>> This is where I went hmm... It's good that we champion the methods
>>>> that we
>>>> like, but not at the expense of others. This is probably already an
>>>> unwritten understanding. The reason why I mention this is because I
>>>> know I
>>>> would not be able to handle long-term reading in Signwriting materials
>>>> without the ability to use a font for easier reading. (Perhaps even
>>>> Signwriting with an ASLwrite font!) I wouldn't feel comfortable if my
>>>> instructor required the text even though I would probably do the same!
>>>> Human
>>>> nature, that. :)
>>>> 
>>>> Now back to my main point about the two different types of prejudice.
>>>> Perhaps the first step to dismantling the general resistance to
>>>> written SL
>>>> is to construct a framework, whether physical or mental, where the
>>>> evidence
>>>> for a written SL is clear. Then within that framework the second step
>>>> would
>>>> be to provide access to several written SL to see which particular one
>>>> best
>>>> fits the individual or group. Not everyone responds to a certain
>>>> method,
>>>> however, once one method is learned it can benefit another. It's when
>>>> walls
>>>> are constructed around methods that problems arise.
>>>> 
>>>> In closing, Stephen's comments opened up the question on why people are
>>>> resistant to Signwriting. I hope my brief story helps a bit. It's been
>>>> inspiring to see the body of work and the community here. I have a lot
>>>> of
>>>> respect for that.
>>>> 
>>>> What do you all think? I look forward to your thoughts --
>>>> 
>>>> ‿·⪦˒˒
>>>> 
>>>> *****
>>>> Adrean Clark
>>>> 
>>>> Author and Artist
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.adreanclark.com
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Stefan Woehrmann
>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Valerie and friends,
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am following the presentation 42..
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well as long as we ask people and teachers who already got the chance
>>>>> to
>>>>> overcome their prejudice and who got the chance to feel happy about
>>>>> their
>>>>> own positive experience while learning and teaching with support of
>>>>> SignWriting materials ... we should not be surprised to get  a
>>>>> positive
>>>>> feedback.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Would be soooo tremendously important to find out whether there is any
>>>>> chance to reach out to people who do ot see any sense, desire ..to
>>>>> put any
>>>>> effort in learning to become familiar with SignWriting. ..
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> How about if  students in ASL – instruction courses for hearing as
>>>>> well as
>>>>> parents of deaf students would simply ask the teacher/instructor  to
>>>>> offer
>>>>> reasonable materials written in SignWriting. SignWriting competence
>>>>> should
>>>>> become a subject in education for coming teachers for deaf students
>>>>> and for
>>>>> SignLanguage instructors... interpreters...
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> All Best
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Stefan
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> 
>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator [log in to unmask]
>>>> 
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> 
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>> 
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> 
>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator [log in to unmask]
>>>> 
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> 
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>> 
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>> 
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> 
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>> 
>>> Valerie Sutton
>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> 
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> 
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>> 
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> [log in to unmask]
>> 
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>> [log in to unmask]
>> 
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>> 
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________
> 
> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> 
> Valerie Sutton
> SignWriting List moderator
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
> 
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
> <default.xml>

________________________________________________


SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
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