Hi Adam and João and Steve -
You always have my blessing for whatever you feel is right - I think it is a matter of what the phonological sequence is used for - If you are not using the SignSpelling Sequence to sort dictionaries, but you are using the Sequence to teach the reader what the Sequence is when you produce the sign, then your Sequence is perfect -

The reason that the sorting of dictionaries got complicated is, that we had thousands of signs - I think there were 3000, and I found the few signers I tested it on, had trouble finding the signs. To find the the sign for Deaf within a listing of 3000 signs - they looked for handshape first, but realized they had to look for palm orientation next, and then rotation next - so within the one handshape symbol is embedded three pieces of information - shape, orientation and angle. Usually they found the sign they wanted if they could get that far!

So please go right ahead. Whatever you choose to do is fine with me - that was a long time ago and it is something for us to re-visit and work with again -

Attached is the dictionary document I promised to attach, and here are links to dictionaries sorted by SignSpellings:

http://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs2/sw0113-US-ASL-English-Dict.pdf

http://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs2/sw0111-US-PictDict-ASL-Eng.pdf





On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 6:18 PM Adam Frost <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I’m not sure if I understand what you mean by phonological order, João, but I think I can try.

The 4 syllables that Valerie mentioned in her document are beginning hand positions, movements, ending hand positions, and location & facial expressions.

The hand syllables can have the dominant hand and then the non-dominant hand.

The movement syllables can have the movement between the beginning and ending hands in the order that the occur phonetically. If there is a contact followed by an arm movement, the arm movement would not be placed before the contact. However, if the arm movement occurs before the contact, then the contact wouldn’t be before the arm movement.

I generally place the location symbols before the facial expressions for the 4th syllable if there are both in one sign.

Unless I am wrong, I feel that these 4 syllables can be repeated if necessary. Most signs only have 1 main location written, but there are times when there are more than one. I’ll use a writing for the sign DEAF.

This is more detailed than I would personally write it, but it will make my point more clear.

I would order this sign as followed:


Notice that the last 2 symbols are in a repeated syllable set. There are no hand symbols in the second set of syllables because there is no change from the beginning hand symbol.

Of course, Valerie might disagree with my example all together, and that is alright. I haven’t done much with SignSpelling Sequences like she has. ;-)


Adam

On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:14 PM, Valerie Sutton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

SignWriting List
October 8, 2019

Hi João -
The symbols themselves have an order too. The SignSpelling Sequence works together with the established order of symbols in the International SignWriting Alphabet. The order of the symbols and the order of the SignSpelling work together to make sorting dictionaries work. Here is another document that might be of interest:

The SignWriting Alphabet (lists the order of symbols or SignSymbolSequence)

So based on the sequence of symbols in the SignWriting Alphabet, a handshape is sorted first by Palm Orientation and then by Rotation (Angle). 

If you need more detail I will be delighted to help you with examples.

Unfortuantely I have two deadlines that are taking my time this evening, but later I look forward to working with you on this.

Adam, do you know better how to explain phonological order?

Val ;-)


On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 4:49 PM João Paulo Ampessan <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I see, I want to ask you something, you explained about the SignSpelling Sequence, there are 3 syllable categories 1 to 4, but there are no details like the phonological order, for example which manual setting is the first? clap orientation? movement? location? etc. you only show signs, I want parameters and phonological order with details.

Sorry, I'm very bad english, I realized that I wrote does'nt  clarity. I hope you understand.

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