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SignWriting List
February 14, 2011

Hello Honza and Charles!

Because Charles answered your question before, extensively, here on the SignWriting List, Honza, I didn't answer before because I thought that was enough - I guess you did not realize that Charles answered you before? - If you go into the SignWriting List Archives you can find his old answers on these web pages:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1101D&L=SW-L&P=14694

and also

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1101D&L=SW-L&P=26376

and below, Charles has answered you once again...

THANK YOU, Charles, for your answers!

Now let me share with you what is happening with me on this subject. Over time, although Charles and my theories were definitely close before, and perhaps still are (smile)....one day, I sorted a dictionary of over 3000 signs by Sign-Symbols, and I printed the dictionary. And when I did that, I tested to see if it was easy to find signs, sorted by my first theory...and to my surprise, it was not so good...so I revised my theory...

I found out that although we write Location early in the writing of a sign, because we need to give the sign an "anchor"...for example we write the Head Circle first because we need to know how to place the hand symbol in relationship to it, when we write...even though that is our "sequence of writing", when it comes to "looking up signs" in large dictionaries, the tendency "seemed to be" (and this does need more research) that it was easier to look-up by beginning handshapes and then movement/dynamics and then ending handshapes first, almost like a unit "Handshapes-Movement-Dynamics-Handshapes", and then LATER find the Location and Height of those "Handshapes-Movement-Dynamics-Handshapes" configurations - this was a change from my original theory that placed Location early in the sequence.

But this needs more testing...

I am writing a new manual now called Sutton's SignSpelling Guidelines 2011, which will discuss this new "Handshapes-Movement-Dynamics-Handshapes-Location" theory - I hope to have it ready this month, since the Unicode committee apparently wants to discuss this issue too... smile ....

Attached is the beginning of the manual, but please know this is not the new manual and I am writing right now...but it does show the "Handshapes-Movement-Dynamics-Handshapes-Location" theory, based on what I call "Syllables"... four Syllables: 



I know there are other theories on this issue too, and I am open and interested in all of them -

I hope this has helped, Honza, and thank you once again, Charles -

Honza...do you know how to create your own SignSpelling Sequences in SignPuddle? Did you know you can establish your own theories and sort as you wish and test your own theories directly using SignPuddle software? If you want to learn how to use the software to do this, write again -

Val ;-)

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On Feb 14, 2011, at 5:24 AM, Charles Butler wrote:

> Honza, here is the article I was telling you about.  This orders by handshape, then movement, then speed, then facial expression.
>  
> Within handshape, it is by orientation, then rotation. 
>  
> http://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs1/sw0066-SW-Journal-Butler.pdf

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On Feb 14, 2011, at 3:32 AM, Charles Butler wrote:

> Dear Honza,
> 
> I wrote you back extensively.
> 
> If you go to the SignPuddle and press "search by symbol", you will get a default order by either handshape, movement, or facial expression.
> 
> Using handshape as the primary, I order by handshape by using the ordering portion of the signpuddle in each sign.  This is a manual process so you can choose what order you want the "Sign Spelling" to appear in.
> 
> If you press symbol frequency, all the signs come up by use of handshape, and whatever order YOU have imposed. 
> 
> I am working on the Brazilian and Ethiopian signpuddles to ensure a uniformity of sign order. 
> 
> Valerie should have a link to the order I worked with in Brazil in 2001, which is the only one that I have seen that has been documented down to the movement level. This entire field is brand new so you have every right to work with your deaf population and discover what best works for you.
> 
> Valerie's system and mine are very close.  
> 
> She can put my link on line to you with my 10 page paper on ordering signs.
> 
> Charles Butler
> 
> 
> From: Honza <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Mon, February 14, 2011 5:24:57 AM
> Subject: Re: how to order sign in SL dictionary
> 
> Hello everyone.
> 
> I haven't got any response. Does not anyone have any experience with this task?
> thanks
> 
> Honza
> 
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Honza <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I wonder how to order signs in SL dictionary in the part SL to spoken language.
> In spoken language it is common to order signs in order of alphabeth, but what about the another direction?
> In this part SL to spoken language it is common to order signs by hanshapes, but in which order?
> Does anybody have any experineces with this order? I know that in US it is used number order (as groups in SignPuddle).
> 
> thanks for your advices.
> Honza, Czech Republic
> 
>