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Thnk you Stefan,

yes, mouthing is part of many signed languages in Europe. So many signs are not complete without the appropriate mouth. SOme of these mouth-forms/shapes are not borrowed from Norwegian spoken language, but are special to the Norwegian SL. But many, if not most, signs (especially nouns) have mouthing of the visible part of a Norwegian word as essential parts.

Norwegian SL is not like ASL, there is not a lot of fingerspelling. Borrowing from Norwegian spoken lanugage is mostly done by mouthing.

I prefer to write the mouthing by using symbols from SignWriting to the old solution of writing roman letters close to the mouth. That solution was because we had nothing else - it was fast and easy, but could confuse readers as to what is NSL and what is spoken Norwegian.

I am sure that the case for Germany is about the same as for Norwegian.

I would love for the Norwegian deaf kids to learn how to use Mundbildschrift to help them read lips and speak better - that is a good thing in a hearing society.

I do love that they can write their own language and compare that to the majority language by using SIgnWriting. The goal for deaf education in Norway is not to make the deaf kids speak and read Norwegain, it is to make them educated people who can be as competent as possible in as many aeras as possible. That is why they are learning Notwegian, Norwegian Sign language, English, British Sign language, and all other subjects that any Norwegain kid is to learn.  

Ingvild 


Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:07:06 +0200
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: AW: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: [log in to unmask]








Hi Charles, Ingvild, Valerie, Bill ... 

first of all - what an interesting discussion. Thanks 
for that! 
 
I learn from your comments that it is difficult to 
explain. I tried my best but perhaps my English is not good enough. Erika 
Hoffmann should be able to explain it better than I can. She spent some time in 
my classes. We had been so tremdously successful to investigate about 
Mundbilder. Erika was present when I asked my students to write by hand at the 
blackboard ... 
 
The two systems look very similar but should not get 
mixed. Perhaps this may cause confusion. 
 
What do you want me to do? You think it is difficult to 
write English words "red" and 
"green" in Mundbildschrift in order to practice articulation? No - it is easy 
and in fact for this case I had to invent a special symbol to indicate this 
special "r" which is not to be found in German Spoken language. 

 
You think it is difficult to write Mundbilder for the 
signs "red" and "green" ? Well perhaps this is not neccessary if there are no 
other signs that can be misunderstood as "red" and "green" 
 
You are right - my invention "Mundbildschrift" is meant 
to support deaf students to improve articulation and to expand their vocabulary 
in spoken language. So this has almost nothing to do with Sign Language and 
SignWriting. 
 
Apart from that I defined "Mundbilder in der 
GebaerdenSchrift" which cover that part of information a deaf signer would 
perform while comunicating in Sign Language. 
 
Perhaps it is hard to believe for an ASL - signer but 
the way Ingvild explained  it is absolut correct. German Sign Language 
(DGS) includes quite a bit of this kind of information coming from your lips 
and and tongue as if pronouncing at least a part of a German word. 

 
These informations are crucial in order to read 
SW-documents for DGS fluently and to understand the idea behind it. So this is 
not a cued speech or what ever hearing oriented system. This is important to 
understand. 
 
All the best 
 
Stefan ;-) 
 
 



Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign 
Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von 
Charles Butler
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 
15:41
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: AW: 
Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift




  
  
    Here is a challenge for you, 
      

      When I think of the shape of the mouth for the English words "red" 
      and "green" I would be at a loss to show how that could be articulated 
      with anything other than cued speech. The articulations on the face are 
      precisely the same. 
      

      Their ASL signs are completely different, but a face model would not 
      help unless it is a different kind of signal than a face. 
      

      That is the linguistic model of the two words. The G cannot be seen 
      on the face, as a velar consonant it is simply not seen, and the D and the 
      N are articulated in the same place on the visible tongue. 
      

      Cued speech, which indicates velar positions as well as lips and 
      tongue, divides those out, and it has been used with spectacular success 
      in English-language based classes in the U.S. to show writing English 
      based on the spoken word. 
      

      I am not an expert in cued speech, I write ASL in SW with what 
      knowledge I have, which is not highly detailed in terms of anything other 
      than the P, F, and M articulations which appear in ASL not as indicators 
      of English words but as articulators within ASL itself, not based on 
      English, such as the PAH of success (with a P articulator and a breath), 
      and the MMM of agreement. 
      

      What your system is used for is "visible German" which is a good 
      thing of itself, but I have seen SW as a writing system for a language in 
      and of itself, a conceptual language with its own grammar, so that the 
      DELEGS system would need to be augmented at a separate level to show 
      English and ASL compared for "production" reasons, in which case I would 
      put the Gebaerdenschrift with the English not with the ASL. It's a cued 
      system to show how German appears on the mouth, and I use the facial 
      expressions to show how ASL appears on the mouth when it accompanies ASL, 
      not as an augmenter to writing English.

Charles 
      Butler
[log in to unmask]
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves 
      business forward.

--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann 
      <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

      
From: 
        Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: AW: 
        Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: 
        [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 
        9:07 AM


        
        

        
        
        Hi Charles, 
        Ingvild, Valerie ... 
         
         
        “how can 
        a child possibly write that on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o 
        this is simple".
         
        It is 
        exactly like this!  Just contrary – if you ask a deaf student to 
        translate a given document presenting a transcription of signed German 
        or so much harder of DGS  he/she is begging  I should add more 
        and more Mundbilder in order to reduce the guessing game to a minimum! 
        
         
        I can 
        understand that you feel confused looking a a row of perhaps up to ten 
        facial circles with given mouth-symbols – which I defined to represent 
        the impression as if speaking German ... 
         
        Once 
        people catch the idea that there is a way to transcribe “Speech” in this 
        defined way there is no confusion anymore.
         
        All the 
        best 
        Stefan 
        
         
        
        
        
        
        Von: 
        SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages 
        [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Charles 
        Butler
Gesendet: 
        Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 13:37
An: 
        [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: Mundbilder in der 
        GebaerdenSchrift
         
        
          
          
            
              I guess 
              people are misunderstanding what I'm saying, DELEGS is the closest 
              that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people to show 
              grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or 
              within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own 
              language and compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same 
              concepts. 
              
               
              
              I would not 
              want to show a Roman letter within a sign, I'd be showing a facial 
              expression probably quite similar to the Gebarendenschrift, but I 
              don't even know understand why so MANY faces compressed. One may 
              as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which at least 
              reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10 
              faces.
              
               
              
              I'm sorry, 
              when I see a row of faces it confuses me, I think signs, not whole 
              clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the articulation of 
              a face and for showing that to help with lipreading, it may be 
              perfect, but I look at it and think -- how can a child possibly 
              write that on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o this is 
              simple". I guess I'm looking for minimal pairs, what is the 
              absolute minimum necessary to show an articulation, which for the 
              Deaf in the US was to strip the body away and show much fewer 
              facial markers than hearing users expected. The Gebaredenschrift 
              is created to be articulated by computer, as all these programs 
              are, but what of someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not 
              a computer. If an EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in 
              the world will not survive but a pencil and paper will still 
              function.
              
               
              
              Charles
              
              

Charles 
              Butler
[log in to unmask]
240-764-5748
Clear 
              writing moves business forward.

--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> 
              wrote:
              
From: Stefan Wöhrmann 
              <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Mundbilder in 
              der GebaerdenSchrift
To: 
              [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, October 17, 
              2011, 6:49 AM
              
              
              
              Hi 
              Ingvild, 
               
              in order to understand the difference between 
              Mundbildschrift – a tool to support articulation and 
              listening-training -  and Mundbilder in der 
              GebaerdenSchrift  (what you might write in Signwriting in 
              order to present information coming from the lips and tongue) you 
              may download this file. 
               
               
              http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20GebaerdenSchrift.pdf
               
               
              Stefan 
              ;-) 
               
               
               
               
               
              
              
              
              
              Von: SignWriting List: 
              Read and Write Sign Languages 
              [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Ingvild 
              Roald
Gesendet: 
              Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:58
An: 
              [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: AW: Please help 
              us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
               
              
              I agree, the 
              Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift are not 
              the same - but very useful.

The writing of 'words' beside 
              the mouth was / is just a lazy (and formerly only) way of writing 
              the different mouthing of signs that are otherwise similar. With 
              Mundbildschrift this can be done directly - so I do not really 
              miss this oprtunity to write the latin letters near the mouth. 
              Whith the latin letters the connection to the Norwegian word is 
              stressed, but letters are not really part of SignWriting

I 
              have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture 
              later this week in the Netherlands - as I am to your 
              Mundbildschrift - I am recomending the use of SignWriting as part 
              of making deaf children literate

Ingvild 
              
              
              
              
              Date: Mon, 17 Oct 
              2011 11:46:32 +0200
From: 
              [log in to unmask]
Subject: AW: Please help us test 
              SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: 
              [log in to unmask]
              
              Hi 
              Ingvild and friends, 
               
              it is interesting to understand that you agree with my 
              concept that it is necessary to add information coming from the 
              lips- and tongue movements in order to “understand” the exact 
              meaning of a given sign. 
               
              “....Signs 
              that are the same in the hands and other movements, differ in the 
              mouthing and make distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to have 
              no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly the same but have 
              different meaning) because of this....” 
               
              Well my 
              invention of Mundbildschrift is not the same as my set of 
              “Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift” 
               
              Nevertheless – thanks to the studies of Erica Hoffmann 
              with my students we found out that it is not correct simply to add 
              the letters of a word (spoken language) next to the sign in order 
              to avoid “Mundbilder”
               
              To my very 
              surprise I had to understand – and this has been such an amazing 
              experience – that even little deaf children having no idea of how 
              to write the spoken word – show almost mouth – and tongue movement 
              patterns that almost look like the same – as a “informed” signer 
              would perform. 
               
              Mouth 
              movements are part of the usual guessing game trying to understand 
              from lip-reading.  From my actual point of view these 
              Mundbilder which I defined to stand for special patterns of 
              movements that might result in specific sounds of a given spoken 
              language come pretty close to the best representation of what can 
              be seen (!!!) looking at a signing person. 
               
              And you 
              are right – SignPuddle – so far does not allow to type latin 
              letters – as you could do with the DOS Program. Did you get the 
              chance to look at the German new softare Delegs? 

               
              Now you 
              get the chance to look for your signs almost loke in the good old 
              SWDOS –program. 
               
              In 
              addition to that you are able to change the preferred sign 
              alternative in every document without any problem. You can copy 
              this specific sign and paste it with this same variation. You can 
              write the best translation of the signwriting  sentence 
              beneath this line and hide or show one or both lines! This is the 
              perfect tool to support deaf students to improve their spoken 
              language skills. Just look at the attached gif.
               
              Our team 
              is still busy, busy, busy to complete our vision of an almost 
              perfect SignWriting – software program to support this idea which 
              is the motto of our Editor: “Delegs” = Deutsch lernen mit 
              GebaerdenSchrift"  = learn German assisted by 
              SignWriting".
               
              All you need is a well fed dictionary and this 
              wonderful program. 
               
              All the best 
              Stefan 
               
               
               
               
               
               
              
              
              
              
              Von: 
              SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages 
              [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Ingvild 
              Roald
Gesendet: 
              Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:15
An: 
              [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: Please help us 
              test SignWriter Studio Beta 
              5!!
               
              
              ?

I don't 
              think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth in 
              SignPuddle, can I?

On the other hand, I DO love the newer 
              software,

Ingvild 
              
              
              
              
              Date: Sun, 16 Oct 
              2011 09:11:06 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: 
              Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: 
              [log in to unmask]

SignWriting 
              List
              
              October 16, 
              2011
              
               
              
              Hi Ingvild and 
              Charles!
              
               
              
              Two 
              thoughts...
              
               
              
              First, SignWriter DOS 
              is not past tense - it is not in the past. I am using it right 
              now, and so can anyone. Just download DOSBOX and install 
              it:
              
               
              
              DOSBOX
              
              http://www.dosbox.com/
              
               
              
              Second, software like 
              SignWriter DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually has little to do with 
              how you write. You can write the Norwegian mouth movements in any 
              style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6 too - software is not a theory 
              of writing - so there are no limits to your writing styles when it 
              comes to Mouth Movements in either software 
              program...
              
               
              
              The only limits to 
              SignWriter DOS usage is that it uses a smaller symbolset (sss1995) 
              and it cannot write down in vertical columns - but other than that 
              there are no limitations on your writing styles no matter which 
              software program you choose -
              
               
              
              I think what you 
              really are saying is that you enjoyed writing the old way - and 
              that is fine because you can continue to write the old 
              way!
              
               
              
              smile 
              -
              
               
              
              We are adding a lot 
              of Norwegian signs and documents - have you notice?I am so happy 
              about it!
              
               
              
              SignPuddle for 
              Norway
              
              http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/index.html#sgn-NO
              
               
              
              There are close to 
              3000 signs now in the dictionary and the literature puddle is 
              growing too - we may need to move some of the individual signs 
              from the literature puddle to the dictionary puddle, but we will 
              do that work later - Thank you for all your old SignWriter DOS 
              files, Ingvild! I am happy to build a sign language corpus in 
              SignPuddle Online for all countries -
              
               
              
              Val 
              ;-)
              
               
              
              ---------
              
               
              
               
              
               
              
               
              
              
              On Oct 16, 2011, at 
              5:36 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:
              
                 
                
                
                Another good thing 
                about the DOS-program was the possibility to write the mouthed 
                'words' near the mouth, rather than using the later invention of 
                Mundbildschrift', for those signed languages that use a lot of 
                mouthing in the signs. Norwegian SL uses mouthing a lot, 
                especially for nouns. Signs that are the same in the hands and 
                other movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive 
                signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more 
                signs that look exatly the same but have different meaning) 
                because of this.

Ingvild 
                
                
                
                
                Date: Sat, 15 Oct 
                2011 19:03:24 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Please 
                help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: [log in to unmask]
                
                  
                  
                    
                      Part 
                      of it is to understand that many educational systems use 
                      Sign Writing to show the grammar comparing a local sign 
                      language to the local spoken 
                      language. 
                      
                       
                      
                      The 
                      useful thing about SW Dos is that one can use the spoken 
                      language, the signed language, and fingerspelling so that 
                      one can compare gramatically, very similar to the current 
                      German system. 
                      
                       
                      
                      Thank 
                      you for your attention. Charles
                      
                      

Charles Butler
[log in to unmask]
240-764-5748
Clear 
                      writing moves business forward.

--- On Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
                      
From: Jonathan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: 
                      Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 
                      5!!
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: 
                      Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM
                      
                      
                      Hi 
                      Charles,
    I just tried out SignWriter 
                      DOS to see exactly what you are talking about.   
                      I see you can type right over a sign if you want to, 
                      below, above and if you type a long sentence the other 
                      signs move over.  Is it important for you that the be 
                      place on top of the signs too?  Or is it more 
                      important for you to be able to write some text, then some 
                      signs, then some text, etc?
    Had I 
                      realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter Dos I 
                      may have gotten permission to duplicate it very 
                      faithfully.  With SignWriter Studio some things may 
                      be similar but none are identical.  Right now I am 
                      trying to get the three main parts of the program working, 
                      the dictionary ( I will soon have a preview version 
                      available), the signlist (for printing lists of signs from 
                      the dictionary) and the document.   Once I get 
                      everything working again after changing to ISWA 2010 and a 
                      new database, I am interested in implement a keyboard like 
                      SignWriter DOS.  But first things 
                      first.
    The document isn't functional 
                      right now.  Also it only deals with vertical columns 
                      of writing for the time being.  It can have text 
                      above the sign up to the width of the sign, then it wraps 
                      onto more lines.  At present there isn't any way of 
                      writing just text without a sign but it shouldn't be too 
                      hard to implement.   The editing of the signs is 
                      done in a popup box instead of directly in the document 
                      like SignWriter DOS.  A lot of thought has been put 
                      into it to use the keyboard but it may need a few more 
                      adjustments yet.

Thank you for sharing this 
                      important feature with me and 
                      list.

Jonathan

On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM, 
                      Charles Butler wrote:
                      
                        
                        
                          
                            Jonathan, What I really want 
                            is SignWriter DOS on a modern system.

In that 
                            program you could interleave written alphabets and 
                            sign writing. Clunky, but effective.

You 
                            could clip signs from a narrative and put them 
                            somewhere else.

It was a true typing system 
                            for signing so that you could assemble a sign by 
                            typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I know that 
                            the current encoding of the ISWA is dependent upon a 
                            linking of graphemes and coding 
                            equivalents.

None of the Studios or other 
                            efforts have gone back to actual interleaved Spoken 
                            Language and Signed Language.  
                            I can clip a sign and 
                            put it in here
 , in 
                            TEXT, when does THAT come back in a program. 
                            I feel like we are continuing to take a great 
                            leap backward. Until one can type or easily 
                            assemble, one can't' send email that is in sign 
                            language with a spoken language. IF Chinese can do 
                            it, I am disappointed in every Sign Writing compiler 
                            on the market that can't interleave. 

Charles 
                            Butler

This is an email program and I can do 
                            that, but the SW studio and all other programs do 
                            not do that. 


Charles 
                            Butler
[log in to unmask]
240-764-5748
Clear 
                            writing moves business forward.
                            
                            
                            
                            
                            
                            
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