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Hi Erika, 
 
thank you soooo much for your comment. Hopefully this helps to clarify! 
 
Stefan 


  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Erika
Hoffmann-Dilloway
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 17:22
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift


Just to chime in, as Stefan said, Mundbilder isn't meant to represent the
whole articulation of the word. It just represents what mouth movements are
visible on the face when signers using DGS perform signs. And, as he
mentioned, we found that these mouth movements were performed even by
signers who did not know the German word that might be assumed to be
associated with the movement - the movements were simply acquired as part of
the sign. One need not associate them with speech. As Ingvild and Stefan
have also noted, sometimes the part of the sign that appears on the face is
the element of that creates a minimal pair with another sign. So even in a
very pared down way of writing DGS, these mouth movements would be useful. 
Yes, it would be very cumbersome to write all the heads for the whole
articulated German words using Mundbildschrift. But, as Charles notes, most
of those movements aren't visible and don't need to be written in
Mundbilder, which usually only needs to show a few heads.


On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:58 AM, Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:


What it comes down to is "you would not demand a Spanish speaker to learn
German to communicate in his or her own home but here you are demanding a
DSL primary user of DSL as his or her own Native Language to learn German in
order to communicate to the wider culture. 


Where is DSL as DSL, not as essentially a coding system for a signed
language to interpret German.  


Charles Butler
[log in to unmask]
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.


--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]> wrote:



From: Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 9:52 AM 


From this message, I see we are understanding each other, your system is
used for Deaf chlidren to learn to read and interpret and write spoken
German and translate from German sign language into proper spoken or written
German. 


As a bridge system, it is doing its job. 

I am now looking at ASL written in SW without and independent of an English
translation, written to be ASL as ASL not as a pidgin English on the hands
to be translated into English for the hearing and speaking English
population. The purposes are different.

However, most educators in the US are looking at teaching English to the
Deaf and though communicating with the Deaf in ASL they are looking at
getting the Deaf to understand and read and write spoken English. The
purpose of the classroom is to teach English, not to examine and honor ASL
in its own right as its own language.

So, ASL is still not an independent language, but a colonized language, one
which is not a language "of the marketplace" with its own history, but one
essentially secondary. We once had a newspaper in that language, assuming
ASL as the first and only language of a Deaf population. 

I tried to teach SW to a class of Deaf educators in Ohio. Their ONLY
argument was "why should I teach SW to ANY Deaf children when what I want to
do is teach them ENGLISH", not some other writing system. "They", the Deaf
children", don't have time to learn another writing system on top of
English. 

They'd undersstand your GebaerdenSchrift because its only purpose is to
teach German to Deaf kids, not be used as an everyday common writing system
for Deaf Germans whose only language is German Sign Language. 

Charles Butler
[log in to unmask]
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:



From: Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 9:35 AM



...

[Message clipped]  




-- 
Erika Hoffmann-Dilloway
Assistant Professor of Anthropology
Oberlin College