thank you very much for your comment. Well I have to explain that your assumptions to not go along with my practical experience of teaching deaf students for more than 10 years now using this concept.
It is not only for the purpose of articulation but very much to identify a given sign in its meaning – if you are asked to write a German translation. I had been so amazed to learn how difficult it is for a deaf student to write down what you explain – even if you use signed German. They are no fools so they catch the idea between the lines – but they have to be trained to focus on themselves: Would I be able to write it down. And lots and lots of mistakes related to vocabulary and grammar will be the result if you really get to the point to run this test.
My students do exactly what you cannot imagine. With so much competence they write any Mundbild-Sequence by hand – no problem at all whatsoever! And of course we tried many different things to reduce the amount of the Mundbilder. For example if you count from one to hundred – it is self understood that you do not need a l l the Mundbilder. Same is true if you know that you are talking about colors. If it comes down to sign names (Stefan, Valerie, Bill... ) that are known to the students we follow the method from Nicaragua and add this tiny line underneath – so no extra Mundbild is necessary.
On the other hand – believe me – You would not believe how much advantage can be taken out of every single Mundbild if the words are difficult to differentiate or if they are new terms ...
Attached you find a document – it is not finished. The whole document will be far more than 100 pages. And we feel blessed and honoured that the software Team at Hamburg are so sensitive and competent to create exact that kind of software that really fits to our needs. My students look at this document and are asked to write or read out loud the German translation. Although it is written in signed German it is a very difficult task. We understand that we have to edit this document in order to be able to write the translation without too much guessing! It is not the final stage so far. So we will add more Mundbilder in the future and I can imagine the big smile in their faces because then they will be able to improve their Spoken German skills dramatically!
We also tried a string of Mundbilder without the face circles as you suggest. – big smile -
We do not do that – guess why!
Right now it seems to be a wonderful way to support deaf children to develop higher skills in Spoken Language if we write GebaredenSchrift as we do.
All the best
Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im
Auftrag von Bill Reese
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 14:56
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
I have to agree with you on this. It seems to be a lot of extra writing. But, as Stephen pointed out, it could be used for articulation training but not necessarily the sign itself. As a research or training tool, you wouldn't have a child in school going to the blackboard to write it.
I would imagine that, for Ingvild and other's who's sign language differentiates signs by mouth movements that the different signs could, conceivably, be written with just the first mouth movement (if they're dissimilar) or the mouth movement that is more dominant or is different between signs.
On the other hand, I would also presume it's possible to write a string of mouth movements without the face, similar to the concept of writing Latin letters next to the mouth.
On 10/17/2011 7:36 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
I guess people are misunderstanding what I'm saying, DELEGS is the closest that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people to show grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own language and compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same concepts.
I would not want to show a Roman letter within a sign, I'd be showing a facial expression probably quite similar to the Gebarendenschrift, but I don't even know understand why so MANY faces compressed. One may as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which at least reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10 faces.
I'm sorry, when I see a row of faces it confuses me, I think signs, not whole clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the articulation of a face and for showing that to help with lipreading, it may be perfect, but I look at it and think -- how can a child possibly write that on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o this is simple". I guess I'm looking for minimal pairs, what is the absolute minimum necessary to show an articulation, which for the Deaf in the US was to strip the body away and show much fewer facial markers than hearing users expected. The Gebaredenschrift is created to be articulated by computer, as all these programs are, but what of someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not a computer. If an EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in the world will not survive but a pencil and paper will still function.
in order to understand the difference between Mundbildschrift – a tool to support articulation and listening-training - and Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift (what you might write in Signwriting in order to present information coming from the lips and tongue) you may download this file.
List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald
agree, the Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift are not
the same - but very useful.
Hi Ingvild and friends,
it is interesting to understand that you agree with my concept that it is necessary to add information coming from the lips- and tongue movements in order to “understand” the exact meaning of a given sign.
“....Signs that are the same in the hands and other movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly the same but have different meaning) because of this....”
Well my invention of Mundbildschrift is not the same as my set of “Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift”
Nevertheless – thanks to the studies of Erica Hoffmann with my students we found out that it is not correct simply to add the letters of a word (spoken language) next to the sign in order to avoid “Mundbilder”
To my very surprise I had to understand – and this has been such an amazing experience – that even little deaf children having no idea of how to write the spoken word – show almost mouth – and tongue movement patterns that almost look like the same – as a “informed” signer would perform.
Mouth movements are part of the usual guessing game trying to understand from lip-reading. From my actual point of view these Mundbilder which I defined to stand for special patterns of movements that might result in specific sounds of a given spoken language come pretty close to the best representation of what can be seen (!!!) looking at a signing person.
And you are right – SignPuddle – so far does not allow to type latin letters – as you could do with the DOS Program. Did you get the chance to look at the German new softare Delegs?
Now you get the chance to look for your signs almost loke in the good old SWDOS –program.
In addition to that you are able to change the preferred sign alternative in every document without any problem. You can copy this specific sign and paste it with this same variation. You can write the best translation of the signwriting sentence beneath this line and hide or show one or both lines! This is the perfect tool to support deaf students to improve their spoken language skills. Just look at the attached gif.
Our team is still busy, busy, busy to complete our vision of an almost perfect SignWriting – software program to support this idea which is the motto of our Editor: “Delegs” = Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift" = learn German assisted by SignWriting".
All you need is a well fed dictionary and this wonderful program.
All the best
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald
October 16, 2011
Hi Ingvild and Charles!
First, SignWriter DOS is not past tense - it is not in the past. I am using it right now, and so can anyone. Just download DOSBOX and install it:
Second, software like SignWriter DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually has little to do with how you write. You can write the Norwegian mouth movements in any style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6 too - software is not a theory of writing - so there are no limits to your writing styles when it comes to Mouth Movements in either software program...
The only limits to SignWriter DOS usage is that it uses a smaller symbolset (sss1995) and it cannot write down in vertical columns - but other than that there are no limitations on your writing styles no matter which software program you choose -
I think what you really are saying is that you enjoyed writing the old way - and that is fine because you can continue to write the old way!
We are adding a lot of Norwegian signs and documents - have you notice?I am so happy about it!
SignPuddle for Norway
There are close to 3000 signs now in the dictionary and the literature puddle is growing too - we may need to move some of the individual signs from the literature puddle to the dictionary puddle, but we will do that work later - Thank you for all your old SignWriter DOS files, Ingvild! I am happy to build a sign language corpus in SignPuddle Online for all countries -
On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:36 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote: