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Here is a challenge for you, 
When I think of the shape of the mouth for the English words "red" and "green" I would be at a loss to show how that could be articulated with anything other than cued speech. The articulations on the face are precisely the same. 
Their ASL signs are completely different, but a face model would not help unless it is a different kind of signal than a face. 
That is the linguistic model of the two words. The G cannot be seen on the face, as a velar consonant it is simply not seen, and the D and the N are articulated in the same place on the visible tongue. 
Cued speech, which indicates velar positions as well as lips and tongue, divides those out, and it has been used with spectacular success in English-language based classes in the U.S. to show writing English based on the spoken word. 
I am not an expert in cued speech, I write ASL in SW with what knowledge I have, which is not highly detailed in terms of anything other than the P, F, and M articulations which appear in ASL not as indicators of English words but as articulators within ASL itself, not based on English, such as the PAH of success (with a P articulator and a breath), and the MMM of agreement. 
What your system is used for is "visible German" which is a good thing of itself, but I have seen SW as a writing system for a language in and of itself, a conceptual language with its own grammar, so that the DELEGS system would need to be augmented at a separate level to show English and ASL compared for "production" reasons, in which case I would put the Gebaerdenschrift with the English not with the ASL. It's a cued system to show how German appears on the mouth, and I use the facial expressions to show how ASL appears on the mouth when it accompanies ASL, not as an augmenter to writing English.

Charles Butler

[log in to unmask]

240-764-5748

Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 9:07 AM






 











Hi Charles, Ingvild, Valerie ...  

   

   

“how can a child possibly write that on a board with a
piece of chalk and say "o this is simple". 

   

It is exactly like this!  Just contrary – if you ask a
deaf student to translate a given document presenting a transcription of signed
German or so much harder of DGS  he/she is begging  I should add more and more
Mundbilder in order to reduce the guessing game to a minimum!  

   

I can understand that you feel confused looking a a
row of perhaps up to ten facial circles with given mouth-symbols – which I
defined to represent the impression as if speaking German ...  

   

Once people catch the idea that there is a way to
transcribe “Speech” in this defined way there is no confusion anymore. 

   

All the best  

Stefan  

   









Von: SignWriting
List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler

Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011
13:37

An:
[log in to unmask]

Betreff: Re: Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift 



   


 
  
  I guess people are misunderstanding what I'm saying,
  DELEGS is the closest that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people
  to show grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or
  within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own language and
  compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same concepts.  
  
     
  
  
  I would not want to show a Roman letter within a
  sign, I'd be showing a facial expression probably quite similar to the
  Gebarendenschrift, but I don't even know understand why so MANY faces
  compressed. One may as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which
  at least reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10
  faces. 
  
  
     
  
  
  I'm sorry, when I see a row of faces it confuses me,
  I think signs, not whole clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the articulation
  of a face and for showing that to help with lipreading, it may be perfect,
  but I look at it and think -- how can a child possibly write that on a board
  with a piece of chalk and say "o this is simple". I guess I'm
  looking for minimal pairs, what is the absolute minimum necessary to show an
  articulation, which for the Deaf in the US was to strip the body away and
  show much fewer facial markers than hearing users expected. The
  Gebaredenschrift is created to be articulated by computer, as all these
  programs are, but what of someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not a
  computer. If an EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in the world will
  not survive but a pencil and paper will still function. 
  
  
     
  
  
  Charles 
  
  
   

  

  Charles Butler

  [log in to unmask]

  240-764-5748

  Clear writing moves business forward.

  

  --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]>
  wrote: 
  

  From: Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]>

  Subject: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift

  To: [log in to unmask]

  Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 6:49 AM 
  
  
  
  Hi Ingvild,  
    
  in order to
  understand the difference between Mundbildschrift – a tool to support
  articulation and listening-training -  and Mundbilder in der
  GebaerdenSchrift  (what you might write in Signwriting in order to
  present information coming from the lips and tongue) you may download this
  file.  
    
    
  http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20GebaerdenSchrift.pdf 
    
    
  Stefan ;-)  
    
    
    
    
    
  
  
  
  
  Von:
  SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
  [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im
  Auftrag von Ingvild Roald

  Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober
  2011 11:58

  An:
  [log in to unmask]

  Betreff: Re: AW: Please help us
  test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!! 
  
    
  
  I agree, the
  Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift are not the same -
  but very useful.

  

  The writing of 'words' beside the mouth was / is just a lazy (and formerly
  only) way of writing the different mouthing of signs that are otherwise
  similar. With Mundbildschrift this can be done directly - so I do not really
  miss this oprtunity to write the latin letters near the mouth. Whith the
  latin letters the connection to the Norwegian word is stressed, but letters
  are not really part of SignWriting

  

  I have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture later this
  week in the Netherlands - as I am to your Mundbildschrift - I am recomending
  the use of SignWriting as part of making deaf children literate

  

  Ingvild  
  
  
  
  
  Date: Mon, 17
  Oct 2011 11:46:32 +0200

  From: [log in to unmask]

  Subject: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

  To: [log in to unmask] 
  
  Hi Ingvild and friends,
   
    
  it is
  interesting to understand that you agree with my concept that it is necessary
  to add information coming from the lips- and tongue movements in order to
  “understand” the exact meaning of a given sign.  
    
  “....Signs that are the same in
  the hands and other movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive
  signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more signs that look
  exatly the same but have different meaning) because of this....”  
    
  Well my invention of
  Mundbildschrift is not the same as my set of “Mundbilder in der
  GebaerdenSchrift”  
    
  Nevertheless – thanks to the
  studies of Erica Hoffmann with my students we found out that it is not
  correct simply to add the letters of a word (spoken language) next to the
  sign in order to avoid “Mundbilder” 
    
  To my very surprise I had to
  understand – and this has been such an amazing experience – that even little
  deaf children having no idea of how to write the spoken word – show almost
  mouth – and tongue movement patterns that almost look like the same – as a
  “informed” signer would perform.  
    
  Mouth movements are part of the
  usual guessing game trying to understand from lip-reading.  From my
  actual point of view these Mundbilder which I defined to stand for special
  patterns of movements that might result in specific sounds of a given spoken
  language come pretty close to the best representation of what can be seen
  (!!!) looking at a signing person.  
    
  And you are right – SignPuddle –
  so far does not allow to type latin letters – as you could do with the DOS
  Program. Did you get the chance to look at the German new softare Delegs?  
    
  Now you get the chance to look
  for your signs almost loke in the good old SWDOS –program.  
    
  In addition to that you are able
  to change the preferred sign alternative in every document without any
  problem. You can copy this specific sign and paste it with this same variation.
  You can write the best translation of the signwriting  sentence beneath
  this line and hide or show one or both lines! This is the perfect tool to
  support deaf students to improve their spoken language skills. Just look at
  the attached gif. 
    
  Our team is still busy, busy,
  busy to complete our vision of an almost perfect SignWriting – software
  program to support this idea which is the motto of our Editor: “Delegs” =
  Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift"  = learn German assisted by
  SignWriting". 
    
  All you need is a well fed dictionary and
  this wonderful program.  
    
  All the best  
  Stefan  
    
    
    
    
    
    
  
  
  
  
  Von:
  SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
  [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im
  Auftrag von Ingvild Roald

  Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober
  2011 11:15

  An:
  [log in to unmask]

  Betreff: Re: Please help us test
  SignWriter Studio Beta 5!! 
  
    
  
  ?

  

  I don't think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth in
  SignPuddle, can I?

  

  On the other hand, I DO love the newer software,

  

  Ingvild  
  
  
  
  
  Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:11:06
  -0700

  From: [log in to unmask]

  Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

  To: [log in to unmask]

  

  SignWriting List 
  
  October 16, 2011 
  
  
    
  
  
  Hi Ingvild and Charles! 
  
  
    
  
  
  Two thoughts... 
  
  
    
  
  
  First, SignWriter DOS is not past
  tense - it is not in the past. I am using it right now, and so can anyone.
  Just download DOSBOX and install it: 
  
  
    
  
  
  DOSBOX 
  
  
  http://www.dosbox.com/ 
  
  
    
  
  
  Second, software like SignWriter
  DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually has little to do with how you write. You can
  write the Norwegian mouth movements in any style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6
  too - software is not a theory of writing - so there are no limits to your
  writing styles when it comes to Mouth Movements in either software program... 
  
  
    
  
  
  The only limits to SignWriter DOS
  usage is that it uses a smaller symbolset (sss1995) and it cannot write down
  in vertical columns - but other than that there are no limitations on your
  writing styles no matter which software program you choose - 
  
  
    
  
  
  I think what you really are
  saying is that you enjoyed writing the old way - and that is fine because you
  can continue to write the old way! 
  
  
    
  
  
  smile - 
  
  
    
  
  
  We are adding a lot of Norwegian
  signs and documents - have you notice?I am so happy about it! 
  
  
    
  
  
  SignPuddle for Norway 
  
  
  http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/index.html#sgn-NO 
  
  
    
  
  
  There are close to 3000 signs now
  in the dictionary and the literature puddle is growing too - we may need to
  move some of the individual signs from the literature puddle to the
  dictionary puddle, but we will do that work later - Thank you for all your
  old SignWriter DOS files, Ingvild! I am happy to build a sign language corpus
  in SignPuddle Online for all countries - 
  
  
    
  
  
  Val ;-) 
  
  
    
  
  
  --------- 
  
  
    
  
  
    
  
  
    
  
  
    
  
  
  On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:36 AM,
  Ingvild Roald wrote: 
  
  
    
  
  
  Another good
  thing about the DOS-program was the possibility to write the mouthed 'words'
  near the mouth, rather than using the later invention of Mundbildschrift',
  for those signed languages that use a lot of mouthing in the signs. Norwegian
  SL uses mouthing a lot, especially for nouns. Signs that are the same in the
  hands and other movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive signs
  that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly
  the same but have different meaning) because of this.

  

  Ingvild  
  
  
  
  
  Date: Sat, 15
  Oct 2011 19:03:24 -0700

  From: [log in to unmask]

  Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

  To: [log in to unmask] 
  
   
    
    Part of it is to understand that many educational
    systems use Sign Writing to show the grammar comparing a local sign
    language to the local spoken language.  
    
      
    
    
    The useful thing about SW Dos is that one can use
    the spoken language, the signed language, and fingerspelling so that one
    can compare gramatically, very similar to the current German system.  
    
    
      
    
    
    Thank you for your attention. Charles 
    
    
    

    

    Charles Butler

    [log in to unmask]

    240-764-5748

    Clear writing moves business forward.

    

    --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
    

    From: Jonathan <[log in to unmask]>

    Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

    To: [log in to unmask]

    Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM 
    
    
    Hi Charles,

        I just tried out SignWriter DOS to see exactly what you
    are talking about.   I see you can type right over a sign if you
    want to, below, above and if you type a long sentence the other signs move
    over.  Is it important for you that the be place on top of the signs
    too?  Or is it more important for you to be able to write some text,
    then some signs, then some text, etc?

        Had I realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter
    Dos I may have gotten permission to duplicate it very faithfully. 
    With SignWriter Studio some things may be similar but none are
    identical.  Right now I am trying to get the three main parts of the
    program working, the dictionary ( I will soon have a preview version
    available), the signlist (for printing lists of signs from the dictionary)
    and the document.   Once I get everything working again after
    changing to ISWA 2010 and a new database, I am interested in implement a
    keyboard like SignWriter DOS.  But first things first.

        The document isn't functional right now.  Also it
    only deals with vertical columns of writing for the time being.  It
    can have text above the sign up to the width of the sign, then it wraps
    onto more lines.  At present there isn't any way of writing just text
    without a sign but it shouldn't be too hard to implement.   The
    editing of the signs is done in a popup box instead of directly in the
    document like SignWriter DOS.  A lot of thought has been put into it
    to use the keyboard but it may need a few more adjustments yet.

    

    Thank you for sharing this important feature with me and list.

    

    Jonathan

    

    On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM, Charles Butler wrote: 
    
     
      
      Jonathan, What I really want is SignWriter DOS
      on a modern system.

      

      In that program you could interleave written alphabets and sign writing.
      Clunky, but effective.

      

      You could clip signs from a narrative and put them somewhere else.

      

      It was a true typing system for signing so that you could assemble a sign
      by typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I know that the current encoding
      of the ISWA is dependent upon a linking of graphemes and coding
      equivalents.

      

      None of the Studios or other efforts have gone back to actual interleaved
      Spoken Language and Signed Language.  I can clip a sign and put it in here

       , in TEXT, when does THAT come back in a program. I
      feel like we are continuing to take a great leap backward. Until one can
      type or easily assemble, one can't' send email that is in sign language
      with a spoken language. IF Chinese can do it, I am disappointed in every
      Sign Writing compiler on the market that can't interleave. 

      

      Charles Butler

      

      This is an email program and I can do that, but the SW studio and all
      other programs do not do that. 

      

      

      Charles Butler

      [log in to unmask]

      240-764-5748

      Clear writing moves business forward. 
      
      
      
      
      
      
        
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