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Sorry, Stefan, I didn't mean to contradict you.  I was giving thought to 
an eventual maturation of sign language where a sign will be known by a 
student to represent a given concept, not that it would provide 
articulation clues.

Just a question, do you ever think that more advanced students could 
ever use an abbreviated form of a sign and remember how to articulate 
that sign in German?

Bill


On 10/17/2011 9:35 AM, Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:
>
> Hello Bill,
>
> thank you very much for your comment. Well I have to explain that your 
> assumptions to not go along with my practical experience of teaching 
> deaf students for more than 10 years now using this concept.
>
> It is not only for the purpose of articulation but very much to 
> identify a given sign in its meaning -- if you are asked to write a 
> German translation. I had been so amazed to learn how difficult it is 
> for a deaf student to write down what you explain -- even if you use 
> signed German. They are no fools so they catch the idea between the 
> lines -- but they have to be trained to focus on themselves: Would I 
> be able to write it down. And lots and lots of mistakes related to 
> vocabulary and grammar will be the result if you really get to the 
> point to run this test.
>
> My students do exactly what you cannot imagine. With so much 
> competence they write any Mundbild-Sequence by hand -- no problem at 
> all whatsoever!  And of course we tried many different things to 
> reduce the amount of the Mundbilder. For example if you count from one 
> to hundred -- it is self understood that you do not need  a l l the 
> Mundbilder. Same is true if you know that you are talking about 
> colors. If it comes down to sign names (Stefan, Valerie, Bill... ) 
> that are known to the students we follow the method from Nicaragua and 
> add this tiny line underneath -- so no extra Mundbild is necessary.
>
> On the other hand -- believe me -- You would not believe how much 
> advantage can be taken out of every single Mundbild if the words are 
> difficult to differentiate or if they are new terms ...
>
> Attached you find a document -- it is not finished. The whole document 
> will be far more than 100 pages. And we feel blessed and honoured that 
> the software Team at Hamburg are so sensitive and competent to create 
> exact that kind of software that really fits to our needs. My students 
> look at this document and are asked to write or read out loud the 
> German translation. Although it is written in signed German it is a 
> very difficult task. We understand that we have to edit this document 
> in order to be able to write the translation without too much 
> guessing!  It is not the final stage so far.  So we will add more 
> Mundbilder in the future and I can imagine the big smile in their 
> faces because then they will be able to improve their Spoken German 
> skills dramatically!
>
> We also tried a string of Mundbilder without the face circles as you 
> suggest. -- big smile  -
>
> We do not do that -- guess why!
>
> Right now it seems to be a wonderful way to support deaf children to 
> develop higher skills in Spoken Language if we write GebaredenSchrift 
> as we do.
>
> All the best
>
> Stefan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Von:*SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages 
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *Im Auftrag von *Bill Reese
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 14:56
> *An:* [log in to unmask]
> *Betreff:* Re: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
>
> Charles,
> I have to agree with you on this.  It seems to be a lot of extra 
> writing.  But, as Stephen pointed out, it could be used for 
> articulation training but not necessarily the sign itself.  As a 
> research or training tool, you wouldn't have a child in school going 
> to the blackboard to write it.
>
> I would imagine that, for Ingvild and other's who's sign language 
> differentiates signs by mouth movements that the different signs 
> could, conceivably, be written with just the first mouth movement (if 
> they're dissimilar) or the mouth movement that is more dominant or is 
> different between signs.
>
> On the other hand, I would also presume it's possible to write a 
> string of mouth movements without the face, similar to the concept of 
> writing Latin letters next to the mouth.
>
> Bill
>
>
> On 10/17/2011 7:36 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
>
> I guess people are misunderstanding what I'm saying, DELEGS is the 
> closest that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people to show 
> grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or 
> within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own language 
> and compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same concepts.
>
> I would not want to show a Roman letter within a sign, I'd be showing 
> a facial expression probably quite similar to the Gebarendenschrift, 
> but I don't even know understand why so MANY faces compressed. One may 
> as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which at least 
> reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10 faces.
>
> I'm sorry, when I see a row of faces it confuses me, I think signs, 
> not whole clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the 
> articulation of a face and for showing that to help with lipreading, 
> it may be perfect, but I look at it and think -- how can a child 
> possibly write that on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o this 
> is simple". I guess I'm looking for minimal pairs, what is the 
> absolute minimum necessary to show an articulation, which for the Deaf 
> in the US was to strip the body away and show much fewer facial 
> markers than hearing users expected. The Gebaredenschrift is created 
> to be articulated by computer, as all these programs are, but what of 
> someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not a computer. If an 
> EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in the world will not 
> survive but a pencil and paper will still function.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
> Charles Butler
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> 240-764-5748
> Clear writing moves business forward.
>
> --- On *Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann 
> /<[log in to unmask]> 
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Stefan Wöhrmann <[log in to unmask]> 
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
> To: [log in to unmask] 
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 6:49 AM
>
> Hi Ingvild,
>
> in order to understand the difference between Mundbildschrift -- a 
> tool to support articulation and listening-training -  and Mundbilder 
> in der GebaerdenSchrift  (what you might write in Signwriting in order 
> to present information coming from the lips and tongue) you may 
> download this file.
>
> http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20GebaerdenSchrift.pdf
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Von:*SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages 
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *Im Auftrag von *Ingvild Roald
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:58
> *An:* [log in to unmask] 
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Betreff:* Re: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
>
> I agree, the Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift 
> are not the same - but very useful.
>
> The writing of 'words' beside the mouth was / is just a lazy (and 
> formerly only) way of writing the different mouthing of signs that are 
> otherwise similar. With Mundbildschrift this can be done directly - so 
> I do not really miss this oprtunity to write the latin letters near 
> the mouth. Whith the latin letters the connection to the Norwegian 
> word is stressed, but letters are not really part of SignWriting
>
> I have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture later 
> this week in the Netherlands - as I am to your Mundbildschrift - I am 
> recomending the use of SignWriting as part of making deaf children 
> literate
>
> Ingvild
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:46:32 +0200
> From: [log in to unmask] 
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
> To: [log in to unmask] 
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> Hi Ingvild and friends,
>
> it is interesting to understand that you agree with my concept that it 
> is necessary to add information coming from the lips- and tongue 
> movements in order to "understand" the exact meaning of a given sign.
>
> "....Signs that are the same in the hands and other movements, differ 
> in the mouthing and make distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to 
> have no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly the same but have 
> different meaning) because of this...."
>
> Well my invention of Mundbildschrift is not the same as my set of 
> "Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift"
>
> Nevertheless -- thanks to the studies of Erica Hoffmann with my 
> students we found out that it is not correct simply to add the letters 
> of a word (spoken language) next to the sign in order to avoid 
> "Mundbilder"
>
> To my very surprise I had to understand -- and this has been such an 
> amazing experience -- that even little deaf children having no idea of 
> how to write the spoken word -- show almost mouth -- and tongue 
> movement patterns that almost look like the same -- as a "informed" 
> signer would perform.
>
> Mouth movements are part of the usual guessing game trying to 
> understand from lip-reading.  From my actual point of view these 
> Mundbilder which I defined to stand for special patterns of movements 
> that might result in specific sounds of a given spoken language come 
> pretty close to the best representation of what can be seen (!!!) 
> looking at a signing person.
>
> And you are right -- SignPuddle -- so far does not allow to type latin 
> letters -- as you could do with the DOS Program. Did you get the 
> chance to look at the German new softare Delegs?
>
> Now you get the chance to look for your signs almost loke in the good 
> old SWDOS --program.
>
> In addition to that you are able to change the preferred sign 
> alternative in every document without any problem. You can copy this 
> specific sign and paste it with this same variation. You can write the 
> best translation of the signwriting  sentence beneath this line and 
> hide or show one or both lines! This is the perfect tool to support 
> deaf students to improve their spoken language skills. Just look at 
> the attached gif.
>
> Our team is still busy, busy, busy to complete our vision of an almost 
> perfect SignWriting -- software program to support this idea which is 
> the motto of our Editor: "Delegs" = Deutsch lernen mit 
> GebaerdenSchrift"  = learn German assisted by SignWriting".
>
> All you need is a well fed dictionary and this wonderful program.
>
> All the best
>
> Stefan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Von:*SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages 
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *Im Auftrag von *Ingvild Roald
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:15
> *An:* [log in to unmask] 
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> *Betreff:* Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
>
> ?
>
> I don't think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth in 
> SignPuddle, can I?
>
> On the other hand, I DO love the newer software,
>
> Ingvild
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:11:06 -0700
> From: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
> To: [log in to unmask] 
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> SignWriting List
>
> October 16, 2011
>
> Hi Ingvild and Charles!
>
> Two thoughts...
>
> First, SignWriter DOS is not past tense - it is not in the past. I am 
> using it right now, and so can anyone. Just download DOSBOX and 
> install it:
>
> DOSBOX
>
> http://www.dosbox.com/
>
> Second, software like SignWriter DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually has 
> little to do with how you write. You can write the Norwegian mouth 
> movements in any style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6 too - software is 
> not a theory of writing - so there are no limits to your writing 
> styles when it comes to Mouth Movements in either software program...
>
> The only limits to SignWriter DOS usage is that it uses a smaller 
> symbolset (sss1995) and it cannot write down in vertical columns - but 
> other than that there are no limitations on your writing styles no 
> matter which software program you choose -
>
> I think what you really are saying is that you enjoyed writing the old 
> way - and that is fine because you can continue to write the old way!
>
> smile -
>
> We are adding a lot of Norwegian signs and documents - have you 
> notice?I am so happy about it!
>
> SignPuddle for Norway
>
> http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/index.html#sgn-NO
>
> There are close to 3000 signs now in the dictionary and the literature 
> puddle is growing too - we may need to move some of the individual 
> signs from the literature puddle to the dictionary puddle, but we will 
> do that work later - Thank you for all your old SignWriter DOS files, 
> Ingvild! I am happy to build a sign language corpus in SignPuddle 
> Online for all countries -
>
> Val ;-)
>
> ---------
>
> On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:36 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:
>
>     Another good thing about the DOS-program was the possibility to
>     write the mouthed 'words' near the mouth, rather than using the
>     later invention of Mundbildschrift', for those signed languages
>     that use a lot of mouthing in the signs. Norwegian SL uses
>     mouthing a lot, especially for nouns. Signs that are the same in
>     the hands and other movements, differ in the mouthing and make
>     distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or
>     more signs that look exatly the same but have different meaning)
>     because of this.
>
>     Ingvild
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:03:24 -0700
>     From:[log in to unmask]
>     <[log in to unmask]>
>     Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
>     To:[log in to unmask]
>     <[log in to unmask]>
>
>     Part of it is to understand that many educational systems use Sign
>     Writing to show the grammar comparing a local sign language to the
>     local spoken language.
>
>     The useful thing about SW Dos is that one can use the spoken
>     language, the signed language, and fingerspelling so that one can
>     compare gramatically, very similar to the current German system.
>
>     Thank you for your attention. Charles
>
>
>
>     Charles Butler
>     [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>     240-764-5748
>     Clear writing moves business forward.
>
>     --- On*Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan/<[log in to unmask]
>     <[log in to unmask]>>/*wrote:
>
>
>     From: Jonathan <[log in to unmask]
>     <[log in to unmask]>>
>     Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
>     To:[log in to unmask]
>     <[log in to unmask]>
>     Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM
>
>     Hi Charles,
>         I just tried out SignWriter DOS to see exactly what you are
>     talking about.   I see you can type right over a sign if you want
>     to, below, above and if you type a long sentence the other signs
>     move over.  Is it important for you that the be place on top of
>     the signs too?  Or is it more important for you to be able to
>     write some text, then some signs, then some text, etc?
>         Had I realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter Dos I
>     may have gotten permission to duplicate it very faithfully.  With
>     SignWriter Studio some things may be similar but none are
>     identical.  Right now I am trying to get the three main parts of
>     the program working, the dictionary ( I will soon have a preview
>     version available), the signlist (for printing lists of signs from
>     the dictionary) and the document.   Once I get everything working
>     again after changing to ISWA 2010 and a new database, I am
>     interested in implement a keyboard like SignWriter DOS.  But first
>     things first.
>         The document isn't functional right now.  Also it only deals
>     with vertical columns of writing for the time being.  It can have
>     text above the sign up to the width of the sign, then it wraps
>     onto more lines.  At present there isn't any way of writing just
>     text without a sign but it shouldn't be too hard to implement.  
>     The editing of the signs is done in a popup box instead of
>     directly in the document like SignWriter DOS.  A lot of thought
>     has been put into it to use the keyboard but it may need a few
>     more adjustments yet.
>
>     Thank you for sharing this important feature with me and list.
>
>     Jonathan
>
>     On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
>
>     Jonathan, What I really want is SignWriter DOS on a modern system.
>
>     In that program you could interleave written alphabets and sign
>     writing. Clunky, but effective.
>
>     You could clip signs from a narrative and put them somewhere else.
>
>     It was a true typing system for signing so that you could assemble
>     a sign by typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I know that the
>     current encoding of the ISWA is dependent upon a linking of
>     graphemes and coding equivalents.
>
>     None of the Studios or other efforts have gone back to actual
>     interleaved Spoken Language and Signed Language. I can clip a sign
>     and put it in here
>     , in TEXT, when does THAT come back in a program. I feel like we
>     are continuing to take a great leap backward. Until one can type
>     or easily assemble, one can't' send email that is in sign language
>     with a spoken language. IF Chinese can do it, I am disappointed in
>     every Sign Writing compiler on the market that can't interleave.
>
>     Charles Butler
>
>     This is an email program and I can do that, but the SW studio and
>     all other programs do not do that.
>
>
>     Charles Butler
>     [log in to unmask]
>     <http://mc/compose?to=chazzer3332000%40yahoo.com>
>     240-764-5748
>     Clear writing moves business forward.
>
>     **
>
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