Hi Ingvild, 


if you are interested in the way I would write your „bam“ 




All best 






Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald
Gesendet: Montag, 15. April 2013 00:00
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals


Hello Adam and all,

I know there are 'bite' symbols (#), clattering-of-teeth and
wagging-of-tounge symbols, and moving of chin-symbols. I cannot find any
symbols for simply opening or closin of mouth


As for the ide of only one mouth, do you think along these lines? Are these
arrows the ones you would suggest for the opening/closing? 




Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:47:19 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: [log in to unmask]

There are movement symbols for the mouth in the ISWA. I always have to do
some searching for them because they are only visible on the lowest levels,
but I know they are there because I remember doing them for the SVGs. *grin*


In any case, I don't think that the movement symbols are needed because you
have the positions. (I personally like the three over the two because it
feels like there should be three mouthing positions.) I also don't think you
need to have the double fast symbol for the mouth and hands. I think one is


There is an idea, however, to use only one mouth and have the up-down
movement symbol to show the opening and closing. 



On Apr 14, 2013, at 1:24 PM, "Ingvild Roald" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Val and all,

I used the small arrowheads for opening and closing, even if I know that
they are ment for knucles. Full double stemmed arrows did not seem to fit.
Those used here are for movement of chin:


Actually, I do not know if we do have a convention for writing opening or
closing of the mouth - I know we do have for moving the lips in or out. If
we do not have such a convention, I would like to propose that we use the
same symbols as we use for the opening/ closing of the knucles, as I did in
this writing:


The movement of the mouth, very fast opening-closing, goes in step with the
movement of the rigt hand - very fast down-up. 

Is the writng with two mouth symbols more clear than the writng with three
mouth symbols?




Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:13:55 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: [log in to unmask]

SignWriting List

April 14, 2013


Hi Ingvild -

Thank you for trying two Mouth Positions rather than three. I prefer the two
Mouth Positions, if I have understood it correctly, that there are two
arrows for the hand movement …one going down and then up again. When I read
this, I assume that the first open Mouth Position goes with the first
movement of the hand, and the second Mouth Position happens on the second
movement of the hand - this way I know what is happening during the
movement…so this works for me as a reader - Does this seem correct to you?


I have another question…Near the Mouth Positions you have a Very-Fast symbol
- the Double Fast Symbol - which is clear to me - but what do the little
symbols mean below and above the Double Fast symbol? The slender little
arrowheads that point up and down? Are they necessary and what do they
represent related to Mouth Positions?


Val ;-)





On Apr 14, 2013, at 1:58 AM, Ingvild Roald <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Trying with just two mouth symbols


Of course, the convention states 'opening to written configuration, closing
to written configuration', so the starting configuration is not strictly
Personally, I do not think this is as clear - but less work.



Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 19:42:50 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: [log in to unmask]

SignWriting List

April 13, 2013


I like it too, Ingvild - and I like the way you and Adam are stacking the
heads using the head with the open top to make the stack look like one on
top of the other -


I do have one question - why the need for three mouth symbols? could you
write the same mouth movement with  two symbols instead of three?


It is fine - just curious if the straight mouth is necessary…


Val ;-)





On Apr 13, 2013, at 6:14 PM, Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]>


I like it. It will be a challenge to teach. I had a task including head nods
to indicate sentence breaks in one of the articles I had transcribed.

Charles Butler
[log in to unmask]
Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Sat, 4/13/13, Ingvild Roald <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Ingvild Roald <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Saturday, April 13, 2013, 6:28 PM

Hi all,

I liked the way to stack face circles - now I have retried to write a sign
that I did try a while ago to get response to.


This sign is done very fast, and the right hand has some force in the
movement. The sign  means something like 'imediately', 'speedily', 'at
once', 'suddenly', 'NOW!'.

I wonder if this is readable?



Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:37:12 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: [log in to unmask]

SignWriting List

April 13, 2013


Hi Natasha and Adam and Stefan and all…


I like all the methods shown - and of course your work with Mouth Movements,
Stefan is truly wonderful … 


Regarding writing down in vertical columns, I agree that the feeling of the
changing mouth movements feels like it should be written down, since the
reading of the entire document is going down…and likewise, when reading a
document from left to right, writing the changing facial expressions from
left to right makes sense for the reading direction…


I like Natasha's writing of the sign for FINISH and Adam's too…it is true
that when we use the Head symbol with the top off the top of the head, it
gives us a way to place one face over the other in an interesting stack - to
find that symbol, go to the Heads, and under the first group in Heads is a
Head Symbol that does not have the top on, so we can stack more facial
features into one Head symbol…Adam used that to superimpose one head on the
other in his example below…


And all the Facial Expressions are listed on this page as Adam said:


 - just click on the Group name and it will list all the facial expression
and head symbols with names and ID numbers...


Now, below I have placed an idea...this is only an experiment - I have never
shared this with anyone before, but what about the idea of stacking mouth
symbols within one head symbol? It may look ridiculous and I will not mind
if you tell me so! (smile)…take a look at this idea attached…the Head Circle
without the top on it, would be a requirement so we know we are stacking
Facial features…we would know that those are two Mouth Positions stacked
within one Head Circle, because the top of the Head circle is not there -
this would only work for two positions or maybe three at the most -




It kind of looks silly, but fun to experiment with new ideas - it is a way
to consolidate two Facial Circles into one - what do you think?


Val ;-)





On Apr 13, 2013, at 11:50 AM, Adam Frost <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


The best page that we have at the moment is
This is a page of all of the symbols in the ISWA broken up into categories,
groups, and then individual symbols. There is only a short description of
each symbol. It isn't the best, but it is thorough.


Now that you mentioned about the mouth movements, I looked at it more
closely. I think you want to have the finishing mouth to be protruded open
mouth rather than a slightly tighter open mouth, which makes the wrinkles
that the lines around represent. In that case, I think the final mouth
should be this:




I did a little playing with overlapping the heads and noticed that the
overlapping couldn't occur very well without covering up the above mouthing
symbol. Then I remembered that there were "topless" head circles, so I
decided to try it out and see what happens. What do you all think about






On Apr 12, 2013, at 3:42 AM, Natasha Escalada-Westland wrote:


Hi Everyone,

I (think) I attached a writing of the sign "finish" with vertical heads.  I
like the 
simplicity of showing the initial handshape with movement only.  What do you


Also, is there a lesson page that describes or shows pictures of all the
face and 
mouth symbols available in the SignMaker on SignPuddle?  I'm not sure what
of the symbols represent.  There is an older, online set of written lessons
I have 
found, but it doesn't include everything available in the SignMaker


Natasha Escalada-Westland