Thank you. The reason I wrote the neutral first and the tense last, is that this is the way it feels when articulating. As I said, this is not a word.Maybe my rendering of the lip reading is faulty.


Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 00:59:58 +0200
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: AW: Writing Non Manual Signals
To: [log in to unmask]

Hi Ingvild, 


if you are interested in
the way I would write your „bam“ 




All best 





Von: SignWriting
List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald

Gesendet: Montag, 15. April 2013

[log in to unmask]

Betreff: Re: Writing Non Manual


Hello Adam and all,

I know there are 'bite' symbols (#), clattering-of-teeth and wagging-of-tounge
symbols, and moving of chin-symbols. I cannot find any symbols for simply
opening or closin of mouth

As for the ide of only one mouth, do you think along these lines? Are these
arrows the ones you would suggest for the opening/closing? 



Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 13:47:19

From: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals

To: [log in to unmask]

There are movement symbols for the mouth in the ISWA. I
always have to do some searching for them because they are only visible on the
lowest levels, but I know they are there because I remember doing them for the
SVGs. *grin*


In any case, I don't think that the movement symbols are
needed because you have the positions. (I personally like the three over the
two because it feels like there should be three mouthing positions.) I also
don't think you need to have the double fast symbol for the mouth and hands. I
think one is enough. 


There is an idea, however, to use only one mouth and have
the up-down movement symbol to show the opening and closing. 



On Apr 14, 2013, at 1:24 PM, "Ingvild Roald" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Val and all,

I used the small arrowheads for opening and closing, even if I know that they
are ment for knucles. Full double stemmed arrows did not seem to fit. Those
used here are for movement of chin:

Actually, I do not know if we do have a convention for writing opening or
closing of the mouth - I know we do have for moving the lips in or out. If we
do not have such a convention, I would like to propose that we use the same
symbols as we use for the opening/ closing of the knucles, as I did in this

The movement of the mouth, very fast opening-closing, goes in step with the
movement of the rigt hand - very fast down-up. 

Is the writng with two mouth symbols more clear than the writng with three
mouth symbols?


Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:13:55 -0700

From: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals

To: [log in to unmask]

SignWriting List

April 14, 2013


Hi Ingvild -

Thank you for trying two Mouth Positions rather than
three. I prefer the two Mouth Positions, if I have understood it correctly,
that there are two arrows for the hand movement …one going down and then up
again. When I read this, I assume that the first open Mouth Position goes with
the first movement of the hand, and the second Mouth Position happens on the
second movement of the hand - this way I know what is happening during the
movement…so this works for me as a reader - Does this seem correct to you?


I have another question…Near the Mouth Positions you have
a Very-Fast symbol - the Double Fast Symbol - which is clear to me - but what
do the little symbols mean below and above the Double Fast symbol? The slender
little arrowheads that point up and down? Are they necessary and what do they
represent related to Mouth Positions?


Val ;-)





On Apr 14, 2013, at 1:58 AM, Ingvild Roald <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Trying with just two mouth symbols

Of course, the convention states 'opening to written configuration, closing to
written configuration', so the starting configuration is not strictly necessary

Personally, I do not think this is as clear - but less work.


Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 19:42:50 -0700

From: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals

To: [log in to unmask]

SignWriting List

April 13, 2013


I like it too, Ingvild - and I like the way you and Adam
are stacking the heads using the head with the open top to make the stack look
like one on top of the other -


I do have one question - why the need for three mouth
symbols? could you write the same mouth movement with  two symbols instead
of three?


It is fine - just curious if the straight mouth is


Val ;-)





On Apr 13, 2013, at 6:14 PM, Charles Butler <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


  I like it. It will be a challenge to teach. I had a
  task including head nods to indicate sentence breaks in one of the articles I
  had transcribed.



  Charles Butler

  [log in to unmask]


  Clear writing moves business forward.


  --- On Sat, 4/13/13, Ingvild Roald <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

  From: Ingvild Roald <[log in to unmask]>

  Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals

  To: [log in to unmask]

  Date: Saturday, April 13, 2013, 6:28 PM
  Hi all,


  I liked the way to stack face circles - now I have retried to write a sign
  that I did try a while ago to get response to.




  This sign is done very fast, and the right hand has some force in the
  movement. The sign  means something like 'imediately', 'speedily', 'at
  once', 'suddenly', 'NOW!'.


  I wonder if this is readable?


  Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 12:37:12 -0700

  From: [log in to unmask]

  Subject: Re: Writing Non Manual Signals

  To: [log in to unmask]


  SignWriting List
  April 13, 2013
  Hi Natasha and Adam and Stefan and all…
  I like all the methods shown - and of course your
  work with Mouth Movements, Stefan is truly wonderful … 
  Regarding writing down in vertical columns, I agree
  that the feeling of the changing mouth movements feels like it should be
  written down, since the reading of the entire document is going down…and
  likewise, when reading a document from left to right, writing the changing
  facial expressions from left to right makes sense for the reading direction…
  I like Natasha's writing of the sign for FINISH and
  Adam's too…it is true that when we use the Head symbol with the top off the
  top of the head, it gives us a way to place one face over the other in an
  interesting stack - to find that symbol, go to the Heads, and under the first
  group in Heads is a Head Symbol that does not have the top on, so we can
  stack more facial features into one Head symbol…Adam used that to superimpose
  one head on the other in his example below…
  And all the Facial Expressions are listed on this
  page as Adam said:
   - just click on the Group name and it will
  list all the facial expression and head symbols with names and ID numbers...
  Now, below I have placed an idea...this is only an
  experiment - I have never shared this with anyone before, but what about the
  idea of stacking mouth symbols within one head symbol? It may look ridiculous
  and I will not mind if you tell me so! (smile)…take a look at this idea
  attached…the Head Circle without the top on it, would be a requirement so we
  know we are stacking Facial features…we would know that those are two Mouth
  Positions stacked within one Head Circle, because the top of the Head circle
  is not there - this would only work for two positions or maybe three at the
  most -
  It kind of looks silly, but fun to experiment with
  new ideas - it is a way to consolidate two Facial Circles into one - what do
  you think?
  Val ;-)
  On Apr 13, 2013, at 11:50 AM, Adam Frost <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
  The best page that we have at the moment is
  This is a page of all of the symbols in the ISWA broken up into categories,
  groups, and then individual symbols. There is only a short description of
  each symbol. It isn't the best, but it is thorough.
  Now that you mentioned about the mouth movements, I
  looked at it more closely. I think you want to have the finishing mouth to be
  protruded open mouth rather than a slightly tighter open mouth, which makes
  the wrinkles that the lines around represent. In that case, I think the final
  mouth should be this:
  I did a little playing with overlapping the heads
  and noticed that the overlapping couldn't occur very well without covering up
  the above mouthing symbol. Then I remembered that there were
  "topless" head circles, so I decided to try it out and see what
  happens. What do you all think about this?
  On Apr 12, 2013, at 3:42 AM, Natasha
  Escalada-Westland wrote:
  Hi Everyone,


  I (think) I attached a writing of the sign "finish" with vertical
  heads.  I like the 

  simplicity of showing the initial handshape with movement only.  What do



  Also, is there a lesson page that describes or shows pictures of all the face

  mouth symbols available in the SignMaker on SignPuddle?  I'm not sure
  what some 

  of the symbols represent.  There is an older, online set of written
  lessons I have 

  found, but it doesn't include everything available in the SignMaker pallette.




  Natasha Escalada-Westland