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SignWriting List July 24, 2015 André Merci pour ce message. Il est bon de vous entendre à nouveau. S'il vous plaît allez-y et écrire en français avec pas de traductions;-) Je suis désolé si vous pensiez que je tenu traductions - Il n'y a aucun problème à écrire en français parce que nous pouvons toujours traduire nous-mêmes ... vous ne devez rien faire ... Je l'espère Google Translate a fait un bon travail avec la traduction française ci-dessus ... sourire ... Val;-) ------------------------------------------ André Thank you for this message. It is great to hear from you again. Please go right ahead and write in French with no translations ;-) I am sorry if you thought I required translations - There is no problem writing in French because we can always translate it ourselves…you do not have to do anything… I hope Google Translate did a good job with the French translation above…smile… Val ;-) > On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:23 AM, André Thibeault <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Hi Dr. Abushaira, Val and everyone, > > Dr. Abushaira: I cannot watch any > presentations on YouTube because I am blind. Val did post your survey on > the SW list and I did read it. If you need to improve your survey in the > future, I suggest adding a few questions such as: > > 1) Are you? > A) Deaf > B) Hearing > C) Other > > 2) Do you translate many sentences from your > written spoken language, or from your glossed texts to your SW sign > language or > sign texts? > A) Never > B) Rarely > C) Sometimes > D) Often > E) Always > > 3) Do you write many sentences in your sign > language without using any translation options? > A) Never > B) Rarely > C) Sometimes > D) Often > E) Always > > I posted a few messages on the SW list. I am > Deafian and I daily use the LSQ (Quebec Sign Language). I am unable to > write daily > with a mouse (SignPuddle online) many LSQ sentences without using any > translation > options. However, I am able to write daily with a keyboard (Microsoft > Word) many French sentences without using any translation options. I know > that Val does not like that. I am sorry if I am too forward about this. > > Val: Would I read any PowerPoint presentation > using notes? If so, how could I use them? > > Best regards, > > André > > > Le 15-07-23 18:43, « Valerie Sutton » <[log in to unmask]> a écrit : > >> SignWriting List >> July 23, 2015 >> >> Hello Adrean - >> >> There are no “out-groups” in my world…writing sign languages is a >> wonderful tool and should be open to all - >> >> Yes, there are many ways to write sign languages, and certainly all >> methods have their good points and no one is trying to deny anyone >> anything - we are working hard to encourage the reading and writing of >> sign languages around the world - >> >> In our case, we happen to work with the SignWriting script, but of course >> Dr. Stokoe and others like yourself, have developed excellent systems too >> - The world continues and there is room enough for everyone and every new >> idea - >> >> Yes, within the SignWriting script, we have discussed writing symbols >> sequentially, one after the other, like the Latin or Roman alphabet >> places symbols one after the other in a string, and obviously when >> writing fingerspelling using SignWriting symbols, because the >> fingerspelling is showing a spoken language spelling, we oftentimes type >> fingerspelling from left to right sequentially…but for writing signs that >> are not fingerspelling, the signs relating to the head, face, body - >> showing the hand above the head when it really is above the head in real >> signing - that seemed to work best for easy reading to write the hand >> symbol above the head - and so we stack our symbols to relate to the >> human body - if my hand is below the head, I write it below…if the hand >> is to the side of the head, we write it to the side of the head and so >> forth…so that is our choice within our system - We have discussed this >> for years, and we have chosen to develop software to make this possible, >> and that is one of the unique characteristics of SignWriting… >> >> Of course, this has given many software developers big large projects >> trying to program it - and to all the SignWriting programmers in the >> world - I say a big thank you! >> >> Regarding using the SignWriting software, like me…I am not a software >> developer…I enjoy writing with the programs that are provided by so many >> fine programmers today…For example, have you tried SignPuddle Online? Or >> maybe even DELEGS? >> >> Here is the link for the ASL DELEGS: Just start typing an English gloss >> to access signs…you may have to wait for it to load... >> >> Delegs for ASL >> http://www.delegs.com/delegseditor/?locale=en&signlocale=asl >> >> Regarding Presentation 42, by Dr. Mohamed Abushaira - that is a totally >> different issue. Dr Abushaira has used SignWriting in schools in Jordan >> and Saudi Arabia, but he would like to hope that maybe more than one >> school or one classroom would be interested in reading and writing signs, >> but projects get started in the schools, and they continue for around 5 >> years and the students and the teachers love writing signs, and then the >> teachers retire or the administration from the school changes and the >> project stops and writing signs stops as well - this is a pattern we have >> experienced in the US too - so it is not unique to other countries - >> supporting the writing of sign languages in the school systems is very >> hard because there are many people who do not know ASL well teaching in >> the schools and parents are worried their children will not learn English >> - Dr. AbuShaira’s excellent Presentation 42 in the SignWriting Symposium >> asked teachers to take a survey on their feelings spe >> cifically about the SignWriting Script, and it was very positive, but >> Stefan was trying to point out that the survey did not ask people who had >> never heard of it, or who had mis-impressions about it - that the survey >> needed to have a broader audience - and I believe that Dr. AbuShaira >> would be the first to agree - we need to do more surveys and studies on >> what is needed - Thank you Dr. AbuShaira! >> >> Val ;-) >> >> ----------- >> >> >> >>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 9:46 AM, Adrean Clark <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>> Thank you for your message too, Valerie. It's always good to read from >>> you! >>> >>> To clarify what I meant by walls -- it can range from outright >>> hostility to benign neglect. Fortunately I'm not getting any animosity >>> from Signwriting circles but it has happened with other methods to >>> extreme effect. It's normal for humans to band together (Mac vs. PC >>> anyone?) but that also means that over time the "in-group" develops >>> terminology and systems that decreases access to the "out-group." >>> >>> One small example, the Signwriting software is way over my head at >>> this point but I can see the potential for it to fork so that it can >>> be a platform to support planar* written ASL in general. That's just >>> one thought. I'm not a "rocket surgeon" when it comes to programming >>> but surely that is something worth thinking about? >>> >>> (*Linear vs. planar refers to the main categories of writing SL. >>> Linear is a la Stokoe where the elements of a signed word are placed >>> next to each other like English letters. Planar is what Signwriting >>> does by condensing 3D language into a 2D space.) >>> >>> One more thing -- I know that a lot of discussion has happened over >>> the last 40 years and I'm a newcomer here. My apologies if my comments >>> rehash something that the group has already decided upon. There's a >>> lot I need to learn from you all! :) >>> >>> ‿·⪦˒˒ >>> >>> ***** >>> Adrean Clark >>> >>> Author and Artist >>> >>> http://www.adreanclark.com >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Valerie Sutton <[log in to unmask]> >>> wrote: >>>> SignWriting List >>>> July 23, 2015 >>>> >>>> Hello Adrean! >>>> Thank you for this great message - it very meaningful and I >>>> wholeheartedly >>>> agree with you! >>>> >>>> I look forward to answering in more detail next week. >>>> >>>> There are no walls or barriers. Everything in SignWriting is 100 per >>>> cent >>>> free - no cost, and no restrictions. Everyone is free to use the >>>> system as >>>> they wish…and of course there are other systems, such as ASLwrite, >>>> which is >>>> very beautiful. Thank you for ASLwrite! >>>> >>>> All writing systems for sign languages should be supported and >>>> encouraged >>>> because writing sign languages is beneficial for the world - >>>> >>>> So right now, we are in an intermission between our presentations. Day >>>> 3 of >>>> the SignWriting Symposium is being presented right now. I apologize >>>> that we >>>> do not have ASL interpreting this year. Last year, Adam Frost >>>> interpreted >>>> all of the English-speaking sessions into ASL, in the 2014 Symposium, >>>> but >>>> this year we decided to record the presentation LIVE and then add the >>>> interpretation later - Because the videos will be up on the web for >>>> generations to come. >>>> >>>> I cannot tell you how much I want to add different language >>>> interpretations >>>> of the presentations - not only for ASL but to add Portuguese Sign >>>> Language >>>> and Brazilian Sign Language and Arabic Sign Language interpreters, and >>>> to >>>> also add captions in the spoken languages of these countries, because >>>> we >>>> need real communication to discuss writing sign languages - this year >>>> there >>>> are 8 countries presenting, and last year we had 12 countries, and >>>> because >>>> of lack of funds I have not been able to do all the 32 hours of video >>>> from >>>> last year……but we will definitely do it. >>>> >>>> So we have a lot of software development around the world and the next >>>> two >>>> presentations today is about software development - one new program is >>>> ongoing in Brazil…that is Session 2 coming up at the half hour…and then >>>> Steve Slevinski, the developer of SignPuddle Online, will be >>>> presenting his >>>> new work, called SignMaker 2015. >>>> >>>> I hope everyone can watch: >>>> >>>> Watch on Google Hangouts: >>>> http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/2015/Google_Hangouts.html#Day3 >>>> >>>> Watch on YouTube >>>> http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/2015/Live_Streaming.html#Day3 >>>> >>>> We will talk more, Adrean - and thank you for writing! >>>> >>>> Val ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 8:39 AM, Adrean Clark <[log in to unmask]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> This email has been on my mind for the last couple of days. What I'm >>>> about >>>> to write may be heresy but please bear with me. :) >>>> >>>> "Well as long as we ask people and teachers who already got the chance >>>> to >>>> overcome their prejudice..." >>>> >>>> There's two different kinds of prejudice -- the first is against >>>> written >>>> sign language in general, and the second is against a certain method or >>>> several methods of writing. It's important to recognize the difference >>>> because they each require a unique response. >>>> >>>> If someone is against writing SL in general, then we can demonstrate >>>> how >>>> it's possible. However, that person may not always respond to the >>>> method >>>> that we choose to demonstrate with. It would be like using a hammer to >>>> drive >>>> in a screw -- which could work but leaves the wrong impression on the >>>> listener. >>>> >>>> Which brings me to the next comment: >>>> >>>> "Would be soooo tremendously important to find out whether there is any >>>> chance to reach out to people who do ot see any sense, desire ..to put >>>> any >>>> effort in learning to become familiar with SignWriting. .." >>>> >>>> I was one of those people who had no desire to put in the effort to >>>> learn >>>> Signwriting. My first memorable experience with Signwriting was back >>>> in my >>>> Gallaudet days. Someone gave me a publication that had a block of >>>> Signwriting text in it. I remember being excited about the possibility >>>> of >>>> writing in ASL but my excitement was immediately tempered with the >>>> inaccessibility of the text. This was back around 1997 so the >>>> information >>>> wasn't easily obtainable. >>>> >>>> Many years later, I came across the Signwriting website and the >>>> opposite >>>> happened. It was information overload. My eyes (sensibilities) had also >>>> changed with the intervening years. I'm a graphic designer/illustrator >>>> by >>>> trade -- in a nutshell my job is to take complex concepts and turn >>>> them into >>>> appealing and accessible images. Signwriting's shapes to me are too >>>> rough >>>> for easy reading. It's not an enjoyable experience, so I gave up at >>>> that >>>> point. >>>> >>>> However, I didn't give up on written SL in general. This is because of >>>> my >>>> comics work. It drove me nuts that other artists could write comics in >>>> their >>>> native language and I couldn't. ASLwrite gave me the ability to quickly >>>> create full ASL dialogue in 2D space. In a roundabout way it eventually >>>> brought me back to Signwriting, not as my chosen method for expression >>>> but >>>> as one that I could finally grasp and learn from. >>>> >>>> "How about if students in ASL – instruction courses for hearing as >>>> well as >>>> parents of deaf students would simply ask the teacher/instructor to >>>> offer >>>> reasonable materials written in SignWriting. SignWriting competence >>>> should >>>> become a subject in education for coming teachers for deaf students >>>> and for >>>> SignLanguage instructors... interpreters..." >>>> >>>> This is where I went hmm... It's good that we champion the methods >>>> that we >>>> like, but not at the expense of others. This is probably already an >>>> unwritten understanding. The reason why I mention this is because I >>>> know I >>>> would not be able to handle long-term reading in Signwriting materials >>>> without the ability to use a font for easier reading. (Perhaps even >>>> Signwriting with an ASLwrite font!) I wouldn't feel comfortable if my >>>> instructor required the text even though I would probably do the same! >>>> Human >>>> nature, that. :) >>>> >>>> Now back to my main point about the two different types of prejudice. >>>> Perhaps the first step to dismantling the general resistance to >>>> written SL >>>> is to construct a framework, whether physical or mental, where the >>>> evidence >>>> for a written SL is clear. Then within that framework the second step >>>> would >>>> be to provide access to several written SL to see which particular one >>>> best >>>> fits the individual or group. Not everyone responds to a certain >>>> method, >>>> however, once one method is learned it can benefit another. It's when >>>> walls >>>> are constructed around methods that problems arise. >>>> >>>> In closing, Stephen's comments opened up the question on why people are >>>> resistant to Signwriting. I hope my brief story helps a bit. It's been >>>> inspiring to see the body of work and the community here. I have a lot >>>> of >>>> respect for that. >>>> >>>> What do you all think? I look forward to your thoughts -- >>>> >>>> ‿·⪦˒˒ >>>> >>>> ***** >>>> Adrean Clark >>>> >>>> Author and Artist >>>> >>>> http://www.adreanclark.com >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Stefan Woehrmann >>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Valerie and friends, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am following the presentation 42.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well as long as we ask people and teachers who already got the chance >>>>> to >>>>> overcome their prejudice and who got the chance to feel happy about >>>>> their >>>>> own positive experience while learning and teaching with support of >>>>> SignWriting materials ... we should not be surprised to get a >>>>> positive >>>>> feedback. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Would be soooo tremendously important to find out whether there is any >>>>> chance to reach out to people who do ot see any sense, desire ..to >>>>> put any >>>>> effort in learning to become familiar with SignWriting. .. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> How about if students in ASL – instruction courses for hearing as >>>>> well as >>>>> parents of deaf students would simply ask the teacher/instructor to >>>>> offer >>>>> reasonable materials written in SignWriting. SignWriting competence >>>>> should >>>>> become a subject in education for coming teachers for deaf students >>>>> and for >>>>> SignLanguage instructors... interpreters... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All Best >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Stefan >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator [log in to unmask] >>>> >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>>> [log in to unmask] >>>> >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________________________ >>>> >>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>>> >>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator [log in to unmask] >>>> >>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>>> [log in to unmask] >>>> >>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>>> >>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >>> ________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >>> >>> Valerie Sutton >>> SignWriting List moderator >>> [log in to unmask] >>> >>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >>> [log in to unmask] >>> >>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >>> >>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >>> >> >> ________________________________________________ >> >> >> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION >> >> Valerie Sutton >> SignWriting List moderator >> [log in to unmask] >> >> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: >> [log in to unmask] >> >> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist >> >> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages >> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 >> > > > ________________________________________________ > > > SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION > > Valerie Sutton > SignWriting List moderator > [log in to unmask] > > Post Messages to the SignWriting List: > [log in to unmask] > > SignWriting List Archives & Home Page > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist > > Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages > http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 > <default.xml> ________________________________________________ SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator [log in to unmask] Post Messages to the SignWriting List: [log in to unmask] SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1