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Jonathan,
I don't think, at this point, that Steve would be wanting to reinvent
the wheel, but perhaps something could be worked out similar to how
CAD organizes groups of elements. In CAD programs, different
components like lines, curves, shading can be grouped together and
defined as a discrete item called a block. 
For example: a stop sign in the US is made from 8 lines in an octagon
shape with the word "Stop" in the middle and perhaps a shading for the
area within the octagon. These can be selected, made into a block in
the drawing .. perhaps called "stop". Thereafter, all a drafter would
need to do is insert the "stop" block rather than recreate the stop
sign each time. 
The code for the block starts with a header type of element that
includes a link to the first element in the block - say a line - and
that one, the line, includes a link to the next element and so on and
so forth until a tailing element is reached. Essentially, all the
elements that compose the block are "bookended" by the header and
tailing elements, which aren't visible. 

Bill

	-----------------------------------------From: "Jonathan Duncan" 
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday May 3 2020 2:51:10PM
Subject: [SPAM] Re: Proposal to complement the International Alphabet
of SignWriting by Valerie Sutton and Adam Frost

	Hi SignWriting list, 

	 I want to congratulate Profo Rubens Almeida and team for the
beautiful work they put into this project. 

	Val and Steve, 

	 I was thinking that it's great you are working so that they can add
they other symbols to the ISWA 2020. But I am also thinking that there
is what I feel is a shortcoming to the ISWA 2010, which is easy
extensibility to create new handshapes. I believe if the members of
SignWriting community who had an issue the the thumbs, if they had
easier ways of creating new handshapes and sharing them it wouldn't of
been more enjoyable for them. Also for my hand shape selections, no
all symbols look quite the way they should in each position as is. It
would've been nice to have alternative handshapes that fit more with
what they would like to choose, where they expect it or show them only
the ones in ISWA 2010 like they have now. 

	I'm not sure which ones were most problematic just right now. 

	I think the idea of composing new symbols from the pieces is nice. It
would also be backwards compatible with ISWA2010 without any problems.
The real issues are really 

	1- keep the parts of the new symbols together so that they can all be
moved together. 

	2- displaying them in the symbol area to choose to include in a sign.


	In my opinion, a way to do these two things would be more beneficial
than add a few new symbols every 10 years. 

	To do it we would need a way to group symbols together within a sign
so that they can be moved all together. Maybe creating an extension to
FSW to tell the program which symbols should be treated as one symbol.

	A separate piece of data to let the programs know under which finger
group to display them, and just display them at the end of the
existing ones. 

	Have a way to distinguish the created symbols, possibly by a hash of
the codes of the symbols making it up plus its rotation and palm
facing.

	I think it would be a better long term solution than changing symbols
out from ISWA2010 to ISWA2020. 

	If you decide to replace some of the symbols in the new ISWA2020 and
create FSW. How will people know not to load it in programs that still
have ISWA2010? They signs would become unreadable in those programs as
they would have the old symbols. Of course this will only be a problem
for people having written something with the new symbols in Brazil.

	I was just wondering if you had thought of a solution for this
problem. 

	The only solution that I can think of is to version the FWS and other
outputs to let the programs know which set of symbols it is
representing, if you use the same values. 

	If we only create composite symbols, then they can work in all
programs, just that the older programs we will have to drag all the
pieces of a symbol one by one. Or in my programs, try to select them
together to drag them together. 

	I realize that ISWA2020 replacing some of the symbols from ISWA2010
is the fastest way to do it but without backwards compatibility. 

	Look forward to your responses. 

	Jonathan

  On 4/28/2020 9:45 AM, Profo Rubens Almeida wrote:

	Link to access the Public Consultation platform: 

	 [1]https://doity.com.br/registro-das-configuracoes-de-mao-da-libras
[2] 

	Link to access the presentation video accessible in Libras,
Portuguese and English: 

	 [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ccb1-ONsU [4] 

	Link to access the pdf books: 

	
[5]https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs13/sw1242_BR_INVENTARIO_DAS_CM_ELS_SW_Prof_Rubens_Almeida_04252020.pdf
[6] 

	
[7]https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs10/sw0935_SignWriting_Hand_Symbols_ISWA2010_Sutton_Frost_2014.pdf
[8] 

	The goals of the present research are to investigate, share, collect
and register the Handshapes (HS) of the Brazilian Sign Language
(LIBRAS) to the modality Writing of LIBRAS by the system SignWriting.
It is about a proposal to complement the International Alphabet of
SignWriting proposed by Valerie Sutton and Adam Frost in 2010. 

	This initiative originated from the need to remedy the lack of many
graphemes (symbols) of Writing of LIBRAS-SignWriting, referring to
LIBRAS’ Handshapes (HS) in the main software of textual production,
transcription, and registration of LIBRA’s written form by the
SignWriting system, such as SignPuddle and SignMaker software, among
others developed by the Programmer and System Analyst Steve Slevinsky.
This research is exceptionally relevant for the deaf Brazilian
community because the majority of published works produced in
LIBRAS’ written modality for the deaf public are developed through a
computational system. That means, specific software is used that
allows textual production of LIBRAS through the SignWriting system.
Despite that, this software does not englobe all graphemes (symbols)
of the SignWriting system referring to the graphic representation of
LIBRAS’ HS, entailing in its turn, difficulties for writers,
translators and researchers in this sense. 

	we propose the application of the second step which we developed in
the form of a Public Consultation on an online platform. This involves
sharing the present study with society as a whole, especially with the
deaf Brazilian community that uses the LIBRAS’ written modality
through the SignWriting system. In this process, we hope to incite
many people to share other HS that, until now, are not present in this
inventory or in the proposed inventory by Sutton & Frost either, the
latter who is also available for consultation on the platform. 

	Therefore, the expected result with this study is that the
investigated and catalogued HS by the collaborative work done through
public consultation and its respective registers in this research are
that they are evaluated and validated by the system’s inventor,
Valerie Sutton and her team, to posteriorly be implemented in the main
software of textual production, transcription, and registration of
LIBRAS’ written form by the SignWriting system. In this perspective,
all the Brazilian users of the Written Sign Language through the
SignWriting system will be able to do any production in reference of
the Handshapes, that means, without any preoccupations with the
Handshape that will be used because there won’t be any past barrier
that forced its users to take alternative means to do so. 

	To each Libras user, please send any handshape. We appreciate it.  

  -- 

     ________________________________________________ 

	 SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION  

	 Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator [log in to unmask] [9]
 

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Links:
------
[1] https://doity.com.br/registro-das-configuracoes-de-mao-da-libras
[2] https://doity.com.br/registro-das-configuracoes-de-mao-da-libras
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ccb1-ONsU
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ccb1-ONsU
[5]
https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs13/sw1242_BR_INVENTARIO_DAS_CM_ELS_SW_Prof_Rubens_Almeida_04252020.pdf
[6]
https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs13/sw1242_BR_INVENTARIO_DAS_CM_ELS_SW_Prof_Rubens_Almeida_04252020.pdf
[7]
https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs10/sw0935_SignWriting_Hand_Symbols_ISWA2010_Sutton_Frost_2014.pdf
[8]
https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs10/sw0935_SignWriting_Hand_Symbols_ISWA2010_Sutton_Frost_2014.pdf
[9] mailto:[log in to unmask]
[10] mailto:[log in to unmask]
[11] http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
[12] http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
[13] http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
[14] http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1


________________________________________________


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Valerie Sutton
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