SignWriting List
October 24, 2021

Hello SW List, and Ae and Adam -

This is a good discussion. Generally there is a guideline that staes that the movement of the circle starts where the arrowheads are located.

And I just looked at the video again, and he does start the circle right where I placed the arrowheads. So I wrote that.

The reason I put the hand down low was to indicate that the circle is happening in front of the face without having the hand in the way of what is happening.

But the hand could have been placed higher, but for me it would have been harder to read.

It all depends on the purpose of the writing. If you are writing the sign for other signers to read, in everyday communication and literature, then the writing just needs to be recognizable without making it so detailed that it is hard to read.

By placing the hand lower, I was trying to make it more readable.

But I am curious, Adam, would you have written it differently? There ususally are several ways to write any one sign…

https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/canvas.php?ui=1&sgn=34&sid=202



_________

On Oct 24, 2021, at 8:57 AM, Adam Frost <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

There is no hard and fast rule for positioning of the symbols. This has to do a lot with readability. Generally, what you are asking about the position of the hand being in the starting position, however, is the overarching method and starting point for placing the symbols. There are exceptions, such as, position of contact being the ending of the movement rather than the beginning, or as you see with this sign, the overlapping with symbols would make readability difficult. This is why symbols would be moved around.

So in Val’s writing, I would read it as the hand starting at the top of the head (even though the symbol is near the bottom) because of the movement arrowheads being at the top of the circle. I would also assume that the movement is in front of the face rather than to the side because of it overlapping a little and because there are facial expressions on the face that would be covered otherwise. I would also assume that this is the same reason the hand is at the bottom of the face as it would cover the facial expressions if it were in the actual starting position.

<namesign.png>
Adam

On Oct 24, 2021, at 7:56 AM, Sutthikhun Phaengphongsai <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hello Valerie and SWList members!

Thank you for your suggestions about the "Who?" sign and other writings for circular movement in front of the face. DanceWriting's functionality may be confusing to me a little bit. I agree with you that writing from the Expressive Viewpoint is a more appropriate approach to write in sign languages. According to your description, I suppose I might misunderstand at first that the position of a Circular Movement arrow must always overlap the position of the hand, however, it seems that the hand and the arrow don't have to be in the same place as you indicated. So I have a few questions as follows:
- Is the position of the hand in any SW always the starting point of the movement?
- Regarding the sign for "Who" in ThaiSL as you provided, if the hand is located under the level of the face, should the arrow be located on the lowest level of the circle as well? I'm just curious as to why your arrow is at the top of the circle.

Your explanation has clarified a lot for me. So thank you again!,
<sign (14).png>  
Sutthikhun (Ae)

On Sat, 23 Oct 2021 at 05:20, Valerie Sutton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
SignWriting List
October 22, 2021

First, here is how I would write the sign for WHO in Thai Sign Language, based on the video provided:

https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/canvas.php?ui=1&sgn=34&sid=202

<Thai sign for WHO 2.png>


Second, 

Thank you, Sutthikhun, for this message on Messenger below. Thanks for letting me answer on the SW List, where others can give us their feedback ;-)

Sutthikhun wrote:
Good morning Val! I would like to ask you how to use The Head from different viewpoint symbol for sign "Who?" in Thai Sign Language in as follows:
1. If I use Head Side View, does the Eyebrow have to be shown only on one side or have to be shown on both sides?
2. Does the Head Movement arrow have to be rotated in the direction of the head?
3. Does the Circular Movement arrow have to be rotated in the direction of the head?
4. Does the direction of the Hand have to be rotated along the Head direction as well?

https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/canvas.php?ui=1&sgn=34&sid=200

<Thai sign for WHO 1.png>

ANSWER from Val:  This sign can be written from the Expressive Front View as I have written above. I placed my writing in SignPuddle in the Thai Sign Language Dictionary.

Writing anything from the Side View in SignWriting, although possible and occasionally necessary, should be avoided if possible, because writing from the Side View has different rules and circumstances, as your many questions illustrate!

It is also harder for other people to read from the Side View, because it is so rare. DanceWriting is a different. It was designed for all viewpoints, but SignWiting tends to remain Expressive and facing forward, unless we are writing Mime or dialogue or theater.

So I would rather not get into answering your questions about Side View right now - maybe later I can start a new lesson just on writing rare Side Views. Do you have questions on the way I wrote it above? Do you feel you can write it without the Side View now?

Feedback is welcome. It is fine to discuss and argue and enjoy the debate - that is what the SignWriting List is for!

Val ;-)


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